I went back the the gun show on sunday to work the VFW table. After yesterday's successful day finding the #2 Remington sporting rifle, I figured I'd go look again at what the seller had.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF) - I bought the
Is Stevens model 44 in .25-25. I'll say right up front that I know nothing about Stevens rifles. I'm a rolling block guy, this is my first Stevens. Knowing nothing about these, I took a chance. It has an excellent bore, combination front sight, ,lyman tang sight, 26" half round barrel and solid wood. It looks to be all original, not messed with except it has been recrowned. SN is 22162. Not knowing anything about these I had no idea of value. But the excellent bore. Half round barrel and sights made it seem above average. So I brought it home for $800. This is my second .25-25 rifle. I love the challenge of getting these old rifles shooting again 

I'm going to start reading up and learning about it. But would welcome any information my learned collegues here would like to share. 
Thanks,
Steve

The two features that keep your Stevens from being a standard 44 (i.e., the basic variation) are the upgraded sights and the loop lever.  The next model up was the No. 45, but it normally had a small Schüetzen buttplate. Moreover, the loop lever was standard only on the even higher grade Nos. 47, 49, and 52, all of which had pistol-grip stocks.  In short, your rifle is a collector's gem, and it would be instructive to see what you find stamped on the receiver face after you remove the forearm.

Bill Lawrence

Forearm removed photos. The muzzle measures .783", 26" barrel.

Not the earliest 44 as they had a sharper internal corner to the receiver. Yours has the later improved receiver with a gentle internal 90 degree corner. 
I've only owned a few Stevens schuetzen models, so can't tell you much more really.

Yes the external finish does look rough. But the action works smoothly and locks up tight. The excellent bore condition is what sold me. The serial number on the tang match the barrel.

You guys are a wealth of knowledge 😀  At the breech end the barrel measured .970". A wee bit shy of 1.00". Its a beefy barrel for a .25 cal bore.

Had to check one just to make sure, #1 marked barrel .875” at the breech, .765” at the muzzle 26” barrel.

The #2’s I have are all .790”-.795” at the muzzle on a 26”

Welcome to Stevens.

I think you’ll enjoy it.

I have a 25-21, in theory developed because the 25-25 wasn't efficient as a black powder cartridge.

I’m sure you have a bullet in the 80-90 grain range, they work well.

Thanks. I'm really more of a shooter than a collector, so the bore condition means a lot more to me than the exterior.

Now the hunt for .25-25 brass begins....

Actually, Steve, I'd best it's a pre-WWI rifle.  But forum member uscra112, who has been collecting Model 44 information for several years now, is the person to ask.

Bill Lawrence

With that serial number 22162, it would fall somewhere in the early 00's I would say.  Stevens stopped selling the 44 action for any centerfire cartridges except .25-20 and .32-20 in 1903, and yet it has the central extractor and the 2-piece "bolt" pivots for breechblock and lever, which appeared about 1900.   (The highest s/n that I have logged to date on any of the "large centerfires" is a 25-25  is  33875.) 

Coincidentally, I myself am awaiting delivery of a Model 45 in .25-25 that I won last week in a Gunbroker auction, and I'm in the same fix.  I have ONE .25-25 case in stock.

Sent you a P/M

Something I read recently suggests that the best loads for the .25-25 back in the day were duplex - 4-5 grains of "nitro" powder topped up with 2F black. 

Of course, if we breech seat our bullets,  one case is all we will ever need.   One nice thing about the 44 family is that you can breech seat using nothing more than a dummy case.  Just closing the action does the work for you.

MrTipUp wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 4:31pm:


I think you could get away with one case.

Any halfway decent machinist could turn a plug case out of bar stock.

Yes I saw them on RMC's inventory page.

all my 44's (except 414) have a 5/16" rear sight dovetail, 7/16" front.
I haven't seen that sight before, FWIW.
Wondering if it's in a 5/16" dovetail.

Aaron

Not real common to see, but was a sight offered in the catalog,. What’s probably not common is seeing them out in decent shape.

That might be the “E” package, but cropped off the part that I think says “the folding leaf can be substituted”. Would have to look again at the full page. Sorry about that.

When. $10 rifle has $2 worth of upgrades, with out going to the higher model, it’s at least different.

I wonder why the original owner didn't just order a Model 45, which came with target sights.  If he preferred the rifle/crescent buttplate, that shouldn't have cost extra on the Model 45 because, if I remember correctly, the small Swiss and the crescent buttplates interchange.

Also, if the rifling really is different from standard, could the barrel be a special-ordered Ross-rifled one?

In any case, as I noted in my previous post, Steve is fortunate that his first Stevens was factory-customized in uncommon ways.

Bill Lawrence

Rifling photos.

Here’s a couple pictures of my .25-21 44 1/2’s bore, and pictures of a Stevens folding rear sight, 5/16” dovetail.

I believe that your sight is a Lyman #6, my leaf sight is Stevens version with only 1 leaf.

Sure shot wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 5:50pm:


By the catalogs I have, that's definitely a Lyman #6.

Upon further reflection......
Slugged the bore of my new-to-me 1896 Model 45 s/n 4834 just now.   Six lands and grooves, land width ~.050" vs. grooved width ~.120", (so much for my eyeball evaluation of yesterday).   Groove diameter is .2582 at the breech end. That gives us a baseline for comparison.

Muzzle is disappointingly funneled from (I assume) improper cleaning. 

ndnchf wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 12:23pm:


I slugged the bore, I came up with about .258, I only have a cheap plastic dial caliper.

In one of the catalogs they mention using 2F in the .25-21.

Flat trajectory was the selling point for the .25-25.  This before they had gas checks, too.

MrTipUp wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 9:17pm:


Thanks Bill. I was on the way home from the office where I often wear  bow tie 

As I said, I'm completely new to Stevens rifles. I wouldn't know a lugged hammer from a non-lugged hammer if it bit me on the butt. I have not taken the rifle apart yet. Is disassembly needed to tell the difference? 

I just noticed this marking on the right side of the barrel about 1 5" ahead of the receiver. Perhaps the original owner's initials?

From Stevens #52 catalog reprint on the .25-25 and .25-21.

No, it says to send for the Stevens-Pope specialties catalog.
Catalog #50 has the Stevens-Pope info and load data.

Great information - thanks guys. No lug on my hammer.

I have an Arsenal 257420 mold that casts a really nice 71.5gr bullet. Its a little light, but should be good to start with. I also have a very early Ideal 25720 mold marked 86. But oddly, it casts a .274" diameter bullet     I need to check the barrel twist.

Grant has 1/13 or 14 for 25-21 and 25-25. 1/12 for 25-20.

I’ve seen all 3 show up in a 25-21. Best to just check it.

I just finished loading 25 .25-25s (say that fast three times!). This is original, never fired UMC brass. After cleaning and annealing I made three loads. With no reliable smokeless data available, I'm starting with black powder and equivalent loads. Load #1 is a duplex of 22gr Schuetzen 2F black powder over 2.3gr of 2400 to make it burn clean, Arsenal 257420 72.5gr bullet and CCI 450 primer. Load #2 is 22.0gr of APP 2F, same bullet and primer. Load #3 is 16.0gr of Blackhorn 209, same bullet and primer. BH209 is pricey, but its my favorite sub - accurate, consistent and clean burning.

I don't have .25-25 loading dies, but that is not a problem. I can use a Lee universal decapping die, a .25 acp sizer to neck size and a .25-20 wcf seater die. But to use the seater, I machined a spacer that slips over the cartridge. Because the cartridge is so long and the die is for a much shorter cartridge. The spacer effectively lengthens the die to accomodate the .25-25 length. It worked perfectly 😀  Off to the range this week to test them with the chronograph.

I've read this thread a couple of times and now I'm confused.  What is the inside diameter of the barrel and what is the twist?   

Although the .25-25 was a "varmint" cartridge, you could try it with breech seated bullets.  A plugged case is all you need. Works well in my .28-30.

Another tight Stevens barrel is on my 44/47 chambered .32-20.  Groove diameter is .309", and yes, I checked it twice.

I really enjoyed the video, thanks for doing it.
Model 44’s were made up until 1932 or ‘33, when replaced by the 417, which is based on the 44 action.

uscra112 wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 9:55pm:


I actually tested a few loads, all with the same 72.5gr, 30-1 plain base bullet and CCI 450 primers.

16.0gr of Bkackhorn 209 - 1846fps avg.

22.0gr of APP 2F - 1932fps avg.

Duplex load 2.3gr if 2400 under 22.0gr Schuetzen 2F - 1645fps avg.

A single round of 11.0gr of Reloader 7 - 1556fps.

I think this bullet is too soft and light, but its all I have. I need to order some 86-90gr bullets or mold to try out.

Yup, they're all like that.  Spring is just trapped between the hammer and that lug on the lower tang.  Drop the hammer forward of the half-cock notch and it's loose.  Makes putting it back in easy, too.   

Have you considered contacting The Bullshop for some harder bullets?  He'll custom cast with any alloy you specify.

Reading an article about the Harwood Hornet, or .22-20, which he had pushing those velocities, but using "type metal" bullets.   1900 fps was screamin' fast for those days, especially since they didn't have gas checks yet.    

Factoid about the post 1900 model 44s.  The extractor is cammed back a few thou by the front of the slot in the breechblock as it starts to open. "Primary extraction" like high powered bolt guns have. If they'd had that in the 1890s, there might not have been any complaints about hard extraction of the .25-25.

uscra112 wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 10:43am:


Yes, I was looking at the Bullshop's bullet list. Specifcally the 85gr Winchester bullets. With the very narrow lands and fairly high velocities, a hard alloy seems like a good choice.

The ring you see on the lever is original. They bored into the lever large enough for the ring at the bottom of the extractor, then press the ring in to provide the correct I.D. for the pivot.   

Don't give the detent a second thought if it's already been wiped out.  I've made new pivot bolts three or four times and never bothered trying to recreate the detent.

I wish Stevens hadn’t used a screw slot in the pivot pins, it’s confused a lot of people trying to disassemble the action, the screw slots are often buggered up. 
Stevens published a ballistic chart in the #54 catalog (c1914).
.25-25 muzzle velocity 1551 fps with black and smokeless, 86 grain bullet.

Still amazes me that you get RL-7 to work so well.   

Just noodling around in Quickload suggests 12 grains would get you 1600 fps. with an 85 grain bullet, and at a bolt thrust that will kinder to the gun than my typical 1400 fps. loads of AA#9 in the .25-20.  Fill ratio almost 60%, which should obviate any position sensitivity.

Very valuable chart there - thanks!   

I want to assume "black and smokeless" means a typical-for-the-period duplex load, but maybe they mean that both types of powder are loaded to the same MV.

FWIW   in my experience I have found it easier to achieve acceptable accuracy with plain base bullets if velocity does not exceed by much 1500 fps.   
Of course there are several other factors involved such as rifling twist rate, bullet alloy hardness, bullet diameter in relation to barrel bore/groove diameter, bore condition and things related to the load such as powder type, burn rate, chamber pressure, primers etc.   Yes it is possible to get good accuracy substantially above 1500 fps with plain base bullets so no need to prove me wrong.   All I am saying is that for me it has been easier to get good accuracy with plain base bullets if I set 1500 fps as a limit.  Truth be told I usually find best accuracy much closer to 1300 fps when using plain base bullets.  This has been a reality for a century and a half and is why gas checks were invented so that we can still easily get good accuracy well beyond the velocity limits of plain base bullets.

Small victory - turns out that Lyman 310 muzzle resizer and seater dies for the .257 Roberts work just fine for the .25-25, mounted in a standard set of .25-20 handles.  (Had to modify the seater stem a bit to be compatible with a round nose bullet.)   

RMC has shipped my brass.  Due midweek.  Pulled some gas checked 85 grain bullets out of .25-20 stores.

I fear it'd just be the two of us - three if you left that last box of brass at RMC for another participant. 

Quite possibly we'll just prove what was said by later writers to have been the original experience, i.e. that the extra space for black powder was no advantage.  But it'll be fun anyway.  And maybe we'll find out that they were just doing it wrong.

Poster >GT< showed us how to stretch brass out by what he calls "nibbing" on a lathe.   Mustn't lose that thread:

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I now see you did…..Thanks.