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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stevens 44-1/2 Set Trigger Fly Issues (Read 3525 times)
bobw
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #30 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 8:10pm
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Bill, I’m sure you have just forgot.

The full build is here.

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Bob
  

Robert Warren
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gunlaker
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #31 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 9:44pm
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Thank you Bob.  I guess it works a little differently than I thought Smiley.  Mine seem does hold full cock properly with the fly removed from the hammer, but I guess I have a little more thinking to do.  Thanks very much for the explanations.  I will read them carefully and have another look at my rifle.

Chris.
  
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bobw
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #32 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 11:03pm
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It’s probably me trying to explain how it works that is confusing.  Maybe someone else can explain it better or differently.

I’ll try to simplify checking the fly operation, fixing is another beast.

If you remove the hammer and using the screw to keep the fly in place.  Then holding the hammer in the approximate position it would be when holding the gun in shooting, spur up. Move the fly forward and it should stop where it covers the half cock notch.  When you cock the hammer the sear drags the fly back toward the full notch but should release it before the sear drops in the notch.  You can do the same thing with a finger nail or knife blade and see what happens.  The fly should free fall out of the way so the sear can drop in the full notch….without the fly touching the sear.  Whether cocking the hammer slow or fast the fly should not contact the sear.  If the sear can catch any part of the fly in or out of the full notch it needs work.
« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2023 at 11:22pm by bobw »  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #33 - Aug 31st, 2023 at 12:22pm
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bobw, no apology needed.  I don't think "terseness" would adequately cover the nuances here.

My picture was of the hammer on the plain trigger gun, with two flies as they come from CPA, one in the slot, and the other, in the same orientation, outside.  The one in the slot is all the way down, and it does protrude slightly into the center of the fullcock notch, as shown.  The one on the outside is pushed as far up as it would go in the slot, covering the halfcock notch so the trigger sear rides up past it.  Both are pointed in the same way as your first picture on Page 3 shows.  The business end of the fly I pictured, which you numbered 3 and 4, is just wide enough so if it is pushed completely out of the fullcock notch, it just covers (completely) the distance between the outside of the fullcock notch and the beginning of the metal above the halfcock notch.

Whether it isn't supposed to protrude into the fullcock notch or not, it does.  You seem to be saying that Lobe #1 on your modification of my picture should stop the downward travel of the point #3, keeping it out of the fullcock notch entirely.  This it does not do, and all three of my remaining unmodified flies go the same distance down into the fullcock notch.

I would think that, as the fly hangs down as the hammer is cocked, there would need to be some sort of contact or pressure against the lump #3-#4, in order to push it up and over the halfcock notch, and then ride over the lump.  This first contact needs to be short of actually keeping the trigger sear out of the fullcock notch when the hammer is cocked, of course.

I surmise that the cocking mechanism would have the sear, under the pressure of the trigger spring, pushing the fly up and ahead of it as it enters the fullcock notch.

If I shorten lump 3-4 at point 3, to keep it out of the fullcock notch entirely, I would think it might leave a gap ahead of the surface that the sear might catch in as it exits the fullcock notch.  So I rounded it slightly to help the possible pushing without making a gap.

I could maybe solder a bit of metal at lobe #1 to push the end of lump 3-4 high enough to keep it out of the fullcock notch.  The fly I'm messing with on the set-trigger 47 has already been tweaked, so I might try that and see what happens.

The other gun responds to fast cocking and upside down holding, and once the hammer cocks once, it cocks normally for a number of shots.  How many we shall see.  I hope things will just "wear in."

  
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bobw
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #34 - Aug 31st, 2023 at 1:30pm
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Of course we are looking everything in a static state and need to think how all the parts move when in motion.  We are all trying to figure things out with words, where if the parts were in hand it would be much easier to see what is going on.  We are all learning something with this thread and, I would like to see both you guys guns working properly.  

Your comment starting with “This first contact needs to be short”  I believe is correct.

In my opinion the stop #1 is probably ok as long as it is not allowing the lump #4 get too close to the full notch, definitely not into it.  Once the sear travels past the lump the fly should be free and not interfere with the completion of cocking.  As long as the sear doesn’t hang up on surface #3 (I corrected this arrow to reflect the proper surface better), it should cock with no issues.

Bob

After added the above comments I've been studying all these pictures closer.  I'm now more convinced you are correct with the rounding of the surface #3 (I corrected this arrow to reflect the proper surface better).  Looking closer at the original compared to your new fly, this point is much more rounded on the original.  By changing it should not effect the sear sliding past the half notch.  I would change it by rounding or changing the angle until it no longer protrudes into the full notch.  Do this without any change to the length of point #4.  That length is required for the the sear to get past the half notch.  I would take one of your extra flys and make this change.  This goes back to my points that the fly should never protrude into the full notch and the point early on that said the fly was too long.  Just that too long in this case probably only applies to part of the fly.

Most of the time I'm a bit slow at seeing things!
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2023 at 10:10pm by bobw »  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Flies In The Ointment
Reply #35 - Sep 1st, 2023 at 8:47pm
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I took the 44-1/2 out today and put 25 shots through it.  It cocked positively on the first loading, and on most loadings thereafter.  On maybe 3-4 occasions I would pull the hammer back, feel that it hadn’t caught before removing my thumb, pull it back again from that position, and it then it cocked OK.  There was none of the sense that the fullcock notch didn’t exist, like before.

I’m going to theorize that perhaps the rounding on the back of the lobe maybe needs just a slight more polish or radiusing.  It might explain how sometimes the gun needs turning upside down, fast cocking, or (as in the above case) recocking after the first try doesn’t catch.  This could (I guess) be caused by the fly not always bottoming out in its slot and maybe offering a less rounded point for the trigger sear to push away.

Or something.  I’ll fire the rest of the box through it before going in again.  The trigger pull continues to improve.

I’ll get the other one out over the next few days and see if any “lessons learned” on plain triggers apply to set triggers.

Thanks to all, especially bobw, for the pictures and explanations.
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Stevens 44-1/2 Set Trigger Fly Issues
Reply #36 - Sep 7th, 2023 at 8:35pm
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I ground more off the front of the fly I'd already been using for the 47 set trigger.  The lower rear (3 in bobw's numeration on my picture) was now almost gone, leaving a surface almost parallel with the fullcock notch but still protruding into it slightly.

Assembling the hammer with fly and hammer screw could be done with the hammer at full cock, and with thumb pressure on the hammer, the set trigger would snap it.  Subsequent attempts to cock the hammer resulted in a mild bump or snag when pulled all the way back, but the hammer wouldn't catch in the notch.

I soldered a piece of jigsaw blade to the fly at position 1, dressed it down until it fit and turned on the hammer pin in the hammer slot.  This served to hold what was left of the projection on the fly almost completely out of the fullcock notch.  Assembled, it would snag a little more positively when fully cocked against thumb pressure, and occasionally cock if enough upending, tapping, and other maneuvers were done.  However, now, if cocked, the sear fell into the halfcock notch when trigger was pulled.

So I took a new fly and soldered an identical piece of blade onto position 1, grinding it down in front until it would allow the tab 3-4 to move out of the halfcock notch when down.  When cocked, it seemed to snag more frequently going over the fullcock notch, and would occasionally stick at full cock, with sufficient tapping, rattling, turning over, etc.

At this point, lobe 3-4 still projected into the fullcock notch, although it looked like the surface should allow the sear to slide over it and push it up and out of the way.  Assembling and trying to cock resulted in more pronounced snagging and even occasional cocking.  I took the fly and ground a slight radius or rounding on position 3.  On assembly, it actually cocked, and stayed cocked, more often than it merely heavily snagged.

I put the mainspring on and the hammer snagged often and heavily, and cocked occasionally.

I guess some progress has been made, but it mystifies me how this setup can give these problems.  I'll continue to round off the fly at position 3 and see if the full cocking outstrips the snagging and bumping.  Certainly the extra metal at 1 keeps the fly higher in the fullcock notch; I doubt that a thicker piece there could move it completely out while still allowing the automatic halfcock when the action is opened.

All I do know is that I'm getting plenty tired of taking this thing apart and putting it back together.
  
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