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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Round or octagonal barrels (Read 4548 times)
Grand slam
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Round or octagonal barrels
Nov 29th, 2021 at 11:57pm
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OK guys here’s the givens; I have a Winder Lowall, good tight action. Barrel, Chro-Mo .22 RF, 1:16” and 4 groove ratchet rifling. It will be a serious 100 yd. Benchrest comp. gun for matches with exposed hammer, a rule requirement. All things being equal it come down to accuracy and aesthetics.  Barrel will be around 22” to 24” depending on the bore size. I would like a octagon barrel because I think they look cool but don’t want to give up accuracy, so here is the question. For sake of discussion if I have a round barrel that measures .900” diameter at the muzzle and an octagon barrel of the same length and it measures.900” across the flats it will be the stiffer of the two, but, will it be inherently less accurate because it is octagon?
Thank you,
Richard
  
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n.r.davis
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #1 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 7:13am
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My 2 cents worth and I may be overcharging at that...
I think there is a greater chance of a Octogon Barrel shifting around.  Looking at a Cross Section on a Round Barrel from the center point the Wall Thickness is consistent, not so on an Octogon.  Starting off round and milling the flats as well as turning the taper changes the set of the steel.  My preference would be to have the barrel profiled before any Bore work is done.  Good luck with your Rifle, sounds like it will be fine.  David
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #2 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:52am
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If your aesthetics statement is for real, make it longer= say 28'' or over inches. Just sayin' Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #3 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 10:32am
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I'm just not sure myself, as I've not seen enough data or testing of round vs. octagon where the round diameter was the same as the octagon across the flats. I would think since the octagon takes a larger blank to be equal across the flats, it might give a little edge, but just can't say for certain.
I saw an old letter from the 1870's written by Major Fulton of the US Creedmoor team, where he wrote C. Sharps company to discuss just this thing. It was Fulton's feeling that round barrels were inherently more accurate than any other shape of octagon or half octagon.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #4 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 10:45am
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When I am having benchrest barrels fit in the past I have asked the smiths to put the barrel between centers and take off just enough stock to true it and remove any scale / milling marks and thats it. 
Haveing said that my CPA / 49 has a #3 octagon barrel on it and it is supremely accurate. so if you got it in your head you want an octagon barrel go for it. 
Ya pays your money ya takes your chances.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #5 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:21pm
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Thanks for sharing that Ken. 
I have pretty much always shot a 1/2 Octagon to Round 28 inch #3 Steven's weight Douglas barrel off the bench and I still do so.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #6 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:26pm
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Thanks for sharing that Ken. 
I have pretty much always shot a 1/2 Octagon to Round 28 inch #3 Steven's weight Douglas barrel off the bench and I still do so. 
I have bought all of my blanks from Gail at CPA and the last three were all pre-profiled and polished blanks. And Her pricing has alway been well beyond being fair. 
And the barrels themselves have all been absolute Jewels as received and they can actually be rust blued without any need for any additional work other than de-greasing.
« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:31pm by JLouis »  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #7 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:40pm
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IIRC Sellers in his Borchardt book included a statement from Sharps claiming round barrels were superior.   I suspect they were looking at lowering cost?
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #8 - Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:50pm
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Amoretti I have personally found that if one has an extremely competitive barrel. If it is round, half octagon to round or a full octagon that no matter how long it is or the actual barrel size. It will easily out perform the one who is actually behind it including the best Benchrest shooters in this Country and or those outside of it.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #9 - Dec 1st, 2021 at 1:03pm
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Sellers also referenced a statement in the end of the line of the business for Sharps, that they had proven to their satisfaction that round barrels were superior.  They also said that as a result of that testing that they would only offer full round barrels other than special orders (presumably at extra cost).

Rich
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #10 - Dec 2nd, 2021 at 1:42am
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I want to thank all who have replied. From what I have gleaned so far, at least with .22 RF barrels and maybe all rifles using lead bullets is to make sure that the muzzle winds up at the tightest part of the bore. So I will definitely be slugging the bore before and after profiling it to octagon to find out what the bore contour looks like and go from there. Lapping if necessary.
Thanks guys
Richard
  
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Grand slam
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #11 - Dec 2nd, 2021 at 11:08pm
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One of the things on the action that I will try to check is the threads and action face in relation to the breech block. I’m not sure what I should use for the datum, maybe the back rails that takes the thrust from the case. Maybe fixture the action on the surface plate and sweep both sides. It will be a bit tricky as I understand that the breech block rises on an angle. Also I’ll thread a barrel stub, that will quickly show if the action face is perpendicular to the threads. I’ll smoke the face of the breech block and run it up and see how it fits to the barrel end. By guess and by gosh is the plan.
Any ideas welcome.
Richard
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #12 - Dec 3rd, 2021 at 2:29pm
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My general purpose barrel stub. 
First use it to apply pressure to the breech block to lap the breech block shoulders to assure uniform contact.
Next use it to lap the face of the breech block to assure it is perpendicular to the bore.
Usually less than .001" material removed. Not sure it is required, but makes me feel better.
Chuck
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #13 - Dec 5th, 2021 at 12:17am
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Thanks Chuckster. I need to figure out a way to find out if the receiver threads are perpendicular to the bore.
Cheers Richard
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #14 - Dec 5th, 2021 at 12:21pm
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Not sure I understand the question.
The front of the receiver is faced off in the same setup used to thread the receiver. This becomes the "X" axis reference for all other cuts on the receiver.
The barrel stub shank is cut concentric with the threads and a known diameter. This becomes the "Y" axis reference for all other cuts on the receiver.
The barrel stub shank also establishes the "Z" axis.
If the barrel is threaded concentric to the bore, everything should come out pretty close.
Chuck 
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #15 - Dec 5th, 2021 at 10:14pm
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Chuck, thanks for the answer to my question. Not knowing how the action was fixtures during manufacturing. What I understand you saying is the action was fixtures action face up and the receiver face was milled flat in the x, & y axis and then the receiver was bored and threaded in the z axis. 
Cheers Richard
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #16 - Dec 6th, 2021 at 10:55am
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If the shoulder of the threaded stud and or barrel are in full contact with the face of the action it should be square to the bore. I have also seen the stub being used to dial in the action in a milling vice using a coaxial indicator and or other. Instead of trying to rely on the faces of the action themselves as possibly being square.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #17 - Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:52am
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Richard, That would work if you have threading capability on the mill.
Generally use the lathe as shown in the pictures.
If the action is pretty well complete, might look at Greg's (GT) fixture to hold the action.
Chuck
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #18 - Dec 6th, 2021 at 9:32pm
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“If the shoulder of the threaded stud and or barrel are in full contact with the face of the action it should be square to the bore.”
JLouis, that will be the first thing I will check.

Chuck, I don’t have a mill unfortunately but do have a nice Clausing Colechester 13x40. I generally farm out what little mill work I needed. I’m in the market for a good Bridgeport though, I know there are other good brand mills out there but when the time comes for my wife to sell my gear she can unload the Bridgeport easier, I think.
Chuck, good pic. GT has it dialed in in that photo...no doubt about the alignment of the threaded section and action face. 
Thanks Richard
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #19 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 8:02am
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calledflyer wrote on Nov 30th, 2021 at 8:52am:
If your aesthetics statement is for real, make it longer= say 28'' or over inches. Just sayin' Roll Eyes

Why is that? Extensive testing of 22RF ammo has shown that anything over 18" is primarily for looks and longer sight-picture as it has no relation to accuracy. If using a scope there is no reason for a longer barrel. 
That said, my shortest 22RF barrel is 23". I like the looks of the longer barrels.  Smiley
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #20 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 8:06am
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Grand slam wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 9:32pm:
I’m in the market for a good Bridgeport though. 
Thanks Richard

There is a Bridgeport with lots of extras listed in the classifieds. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #21 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 10:50am
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Even if I lost velocity, or had a scope, I'd still not own a .22RF single shot with a barrel less than 24", and most of mine have 28"-30" barrels. Beyond the better looks, and sight radius, I like the balance also.
I have a full size Rolling block that came with a new 22" half octagon barrel, and shot very well. But looked hideous with 11" of octagon, and 11" of round on the full sized action. We turned down the round portion, and used a 19" piece of old .45 barrel to press over it, and but to the octagon. It now looks and balances wonderful, and still shoots like it did before. 
If I ever built another .22 single shot I'd use a 22" barrel and the bloop tube extension to do this same thing again.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #22 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 11:04am
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In response to Mr. Marlinguy and his views on barrel length of .22 rim fire rifles, I must be brutally blunt here.
Winchester model 67, venerable classic .22 rifle, 27" barrel.
Pure beauty, elegance and handling.
Single shot!!
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #23 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 1:38pm
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I’m going to open a can of worms here about the length of a 22rf barrel longer than 18” benefiting more than just aesthetics and sight radius.  I have built 14 rifles now for this little cartridge – in single shots, a few more in gate latch and semi-autos and nearly twice that many more in the works, (it’s a disease) all but a couple have barrels that exceed 28”.  Several have 30” RKS barrels, most of these are gaintwist, and several are left hand… a personal preference…  I shoot mostly open sights but that isn’t the sole reason for the extra length.  Once the barrel has been either seasoned, (about 2K rounds fired through it to smooth the bore) or it has had approximately one round for every inch of barrel fired through it before data is collected, I’m not seeing validity to the rumor of a longer barrel slowing down the projectile… My average velocities have increased as a rule -due to the consistent distribution of lube?  I did experiment with pre-lubing the barrel but trying to match the Mfg.’s lube is challenging.   I've had some intense objections about the velocity comparisons I've done because the barrels all differ, but the longer barrels have averaged higher velocities than the shorter barrels using the same ammo when these procedures are followed.   

The other real interesting note with the longer barrel – the velocity Standard Deviation dropped in almost every case.  This is using a LabRadar for data collection.  Several of these rifles have produced consistent single digit SD’s and the vertical string at further distances (250 - 400-yard experiments) has coincided with these results.  Head and tailwind contribute to vertical but in my case, I have a severe obstruction at my range that creates a consistent variance from the 3 o'clock position so my horizontal is generally frustrating at these distances.    
   
There are a few of us locally building/built with these features, there’s more experimenting happening with different chamber configurations and most recently, some changes in twist rates.

I picked up a Pope-Ballard that has a 28” barrel that may have instigated this pursuit, not that I wasn’t already on this path, but the ODG’s had an idea I think.   This rifle gave me some data that made me pursue the subject further, several different brands of ammo gave impressive groups and most gave very low single digit SD’s.   It may be just a Pope thing – but interesting to say the least. 
My 2˘
Greg
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #24 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 3:28pm
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GT has obviously expended a lot of time and energy and money into
barrel length velocity testing.
Interesting, but does all the these efforts exceed the practical and 
and realistic use of the .22 LR?
My long range testing was done with a CZ Trainer .22 rifle. It wore 
a Kollmorgen 4X with tiny dot. 
The test was a bench rested rifle to a prairie dog hole at 200 yards.
This was a hold over, hold into the wind excersize in almost futility.
The barrel on this CZ rifle was just at 28". Long by standards.
After an expenditure of .22 ammo, exact amount more then  budget 
Actually called for, a dog was bowled over....
I vote for long barreled .22 rifles.
My Zulu Martini Henry will be 32". 
Some fisherman like short stiff rods, and some like long whippey 
rods.
            It's only a .22, but to each his own.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #25 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:18pm
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All I will say here is that Merkava has little understanding of fishing equipment. Or .22 shooters. 
I don't get involved with the competitive rimfire guys because the 'serious' centerfire crowd is pretty intense itself, and the double-deuce contingent is about rabid. Carry on fellows. I'm done here.
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #26 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:25pm
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  Poor fellow, overwhelmed by experts.  Cry Wink
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #27 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:35pm
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No understanding of fishing equipment or 22 shooters.
Send me your resume.
If you were sitting in a restaurant, with a bunch of fellows discussing 
.22 rifles or fishing equipment, would you talk to them the same way 
You do here??
I think not.
Hide behind the computer screen.
You are a legend in your own mind.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #28 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:49pm
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No you are!!
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #29 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:51pm
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I don't take bait- how's that for fishing expertise?
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #30 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 6:34pm
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This is veering from the original poster's question but I hope he doesn't mind.
On a few other internet places I read about how some guy took one gun, one barrel, cleaned it, shot a group of three or five, measuring their velocity, cut an inch off the barrel, and repeated the process from a 24" barrel down to a 16" barrel.  He claimed from that point on that the best velocity was obtained at 16.5".   
For the sake of science (and personal interest) I've dove down this rabbit hole and I must say it's been a very deep one.  I rarely take someone's opinion if it's backed by "marginal" proof.  It's taken some time and it's still in process but I'm doing an experiment with a single gun/single barrel but I'm not cutting it off at the muzzle, it's at the chamber end so the last thing the bullet remembers about that firearm is the same... AHAH!
 
Merkava,
I have many folks that reply similar to how you did.  Practical and realistic use of the double deuce beyond 100 yards..?   
I compete with CF shooting out to a mile a couple times per year, and several times to the 1000 yd ranges.  The d-deuce at 400 is very similar in reaction and results, taking less real-estate -in other words - fits on my range.
I also use several d-deuce singles, semi-autos, and gate latch guns when we go for prairie poodles on the north 40K acres.  With fragmenting bullets, we shoot in and amongst the stock with exceptional results and no issues.  With some of our setups, the rodent's mortality runs high - both in direct and wound results.  With full mags, good scopes and laser range finders, 500 yards is still an effective range - the little pill still has about 30'# at delivery and scooting along at 600 f/sec. - the poodles know they've been hit.  These don't get the gory results like my CF 22's, 6's, 6.5's or .30's but the threat from strays has proved non-existent.
my Nickel's worth.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #31 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 6:51pm
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I like round or octagonal barrels. I also like half round and half octagonal barrels. I also like fluted barrels. 

I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference as to which shape is more accurate so I don't think about it.

Don't think I would like a barrel that was half round and half octagon if the round half were at the breech end. Well,,, maybe I would. Never had one like that.   Huh
This thread really drifted bad.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #32 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 7:07pm
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Joe I need to try and do one of those someday.   
Might actually be a new shingle shot falling block fad. 
After I do one in metal flake red with Flames.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #33 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 7:36pm
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I think that a round would be the most accurate.   On the outside, tapering from small at the chamber to larger at the muzzle would be the best.  Cutting a flat side on a round blank? Eight of them? what does that really do to the insides when you think about it? In theory it should take the bore out of round, does that make eight grooves and lands better if you are going with an octagon barrel?

Sorry for the earlier drift.
  

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #34 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 7:38pm
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GT wrote on Dec 13th, 2021 at 6:34pm:
This is veering from the original poster's question but I hope he doesn't mind.
On a few other internet places I read about how some guy took one gun, one barrel, cleaned it, shot a group of three or five, measuring their velocity, cut an inch off the barrel, and repeated the process from a 24" barrel down to a 16" barrel.  He claimed from that point on that the best velocity was obtained at 16.5".   
For the sake of science (and personal interest) I've dove down this rabbit hole and I must say it's been a very deep one.  I rarely take someone's opinion if it's backed by "marginal" proof.  It's taken some time and it's still in process but I'm doing an experiment with a single gun/single barrel but I'm not cutting it off at the muzzle, it's at the chamber end so the last thing the bullet remembers about that firearm is the same... AHAH!
 
Merkava,
I have many folks that reply similar to how you did.  Practical and realistic use of the double deuce beyond 100 yards..?  
I compete with CF shooting out to a mile a couple times per year, and several times to the 1000 yd ranges.  The d-deuce at 400 is very similar in reaction and results, taking less real-estate -in other words - fits on my range.
I also use several d-deuce singles, semi-autos, and gate latch guns when we go for prairie poodles on the north 40K acres.  With fragmenting bullets, we shoot in and amongst the stock with exceptional results and no issues.  With some of our setups, the rodent's mortality runs high - both in direct and wound results.  With full mags, good scopes and laser range finders, 500 yards is still an effective range - the little pill still has about 30'# at delivery and scooting along at 600 f/sec. - the poodles know they've been hit.  These don't get the gory results like my CF 22's, 6's, 6.5's or .30's but the threat from strays has proved non-existent.
my Nickel's worth.

It seems like the effective range of a 22 past about 200 yards, depend more on your ability to measure distance than bullet performance. 

By 400 yards, a 5 yard mistake in range often has more vertical error than your target standing on hind legs. Cheesy
  
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #35 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 7:54pm
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Actually all about the conditions and learning to compensate.
  

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Dellet
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #36 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 8:16pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 13th, 2021 at 7:54pm:
Actually all about the conditions and learning to compensate.


Not quite completely true. In target shooting with known distances, I agree. Field shooting or hunting, as being discussed, it’s false.

A standard velocity, 1050 fps 40 grain bullet, zeroed at 100 yards, drops about 2” every yard at 400 yards

So a 5 yard mistake of range in a perfect world, nets you 10” or more vertical error. It only gets worse in a real world.

Or to out it another way, if you have compensated, as you put it, for an error in distance, you’re not compensating at all. You have learned the actual distance, and you are no longer compensating.
  
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ballardhepburnmich
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #37 - Dec 14th, 2021 at 1:06am
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The bottom line is if you can hit what you're shooting at, at what ever distance you're shooting, that is all that matters. Some are better at it than others. 
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #38 - Dec 14th, 2021 at 1:12am
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Don’t mind at all drifting from the question at hand. Decided to go with a round profile.
Thanks for the lead regarding the Bridgeport but looking for a 48” table.
Carry on!
Cheers Richard
“So much to do so little time”
  
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JLouis
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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #39 - Dec 14th, 2021 at 10:30am
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Totally agree Dellet it takes both.
  

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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

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Re: Round or octagonal barrels
Reply #40 - Dec 14th, 2021 at 10:31am
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I've got a Hepburn a friend is rebarreling currently with a .40-65 Green Mountain barrel in #4 weight full octagon. Have another Rolling Block that has the same barrel in full round I put together many years ago.
So once the Hepburn project is completed I'm planning on taking the same loads and both guns to the range, and test the round vs. octagon theory. With the only difference being the actions they're on, maybe I can see which of the two shoots smaller groups at various distances. The old round barrel Roller has been a wonderful rifle, and proved to be very accurate. So hope the full octagon is it's equal.
  

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