Generally for precision work, again generally, you will find that the Browning designed Winchester 1885 rifles we refer to a Hi-walls have a much quicker locktime as well as less pre-ignition action torque due to having a lighter centerhung hammer than the Sharps rifles you are used to.  The 'wall's centerhung hammer permits a much more direct and reliable firing pin arrangement.  If you are shooting for a group size or a score on a paper target those advantages really weigh in.

After all the original 'wall was at least a generation of tech-development beyond the civil war era percussion rifles the Sharps was derived from.  the '77 Sharps was their way of upgrading the basic Sharps action to produce a more target worthy rifle; and of course the later Sharps-Borchardt was the final evolution in their line.

As I understand it; The Sharps of course was one of the most desired rifles by the soldiers of the Civil War.  While it was not as rapid fire as the Henry it had a much more powerful cartridge.  I suspect that the attraction of the Sharps in the post-civil war buffalo hunting era was stimulated by the fact that so many of the men who were on the frontier in that era were CW veterans. Sharps also targeted their postwar production and marketing to the western market.  By the time the 1885 Winchester came along the Sharps had a decade of head start, the buffalo hunt era was almost over.  Repeating rifles were more popular for most hunting use other than for really big game.  The single shot pretty well evolved into a niche arm most commonly found on the target range where the Sharps was supplanted by more modern actions. 

There are a number of 'walls being currently produced, both here in the USA and abroad.  My belief is that most of them are better-made in terms of metallurgy and QC production methods than the originals.
Ballard Rifles of Cody WY makes a supurlative version with quality and construction that equals or exceeds anyhting you will find with the modern American-made '74 Sharps.  The various versions made under the aegis of Browning while being a reinterpretation in terms of internal lockwork are faithful in exterior appearance and basic function to the originals and many are seen on the lines of the BPCR and similar venus where the '74 Sharps are most commonly found. I have no experience wiht the Italian-made versions so I cannot speak to them.

MIke I don't disagree with you in principal.  "it's the shooter, not the gun" within logical reason.  however I would suggest that given identical 45-70 loads out of rifles with equal spec barrels the High wall will have an advantage over the sidehammer 74 in offhand shooting and in any type of paper target match where group size or score is measured.  Obviously in a metallic sillhouette match when all that counts is a knockdown and you have a spotter to call your shots the 74's work perfectly well. 
I've used both my 45-70 browning'wall (with a rather stiff trigger) with the 457676 lyman matthews 500 gr bullet and my cousin's Shilo Sharps with a nice DST and the same loads off the bench at 200 yards and the wall will group better and score higher even though it has a shorter and lighter barrel---and kicks me around a fair amount more too boot.  Now trying to knockdown the rams off cross-stix might be a different story.

DWS8130:

Your statement about the side hammer and Civil War veterans is undoubtably true. However, I believe the main reason the Sharps was used more extensivly than the rolling block was that the side hammer was what people were used to. Guns for centuries had the hammer hung on the side. The human animal is mighty resistant to change.

Bill

Two questions here: are other actions (like, specifically the high wall) theoretically better than the Sharps? and are they actually better in real-life competition results?

Answer, IMO, yes to both questions.

For a mighty convincing argument, just check the equipment lists of the winners for competitions like Schuetzen, Mid-range and Long Range. Lotta walls, Ballards and Borchardts, very few sidehammers. Lots more sidehammer winners in BPCR Silhouette, but IMO Silhouette is a game that's always a lot more fun but also is generally a much less demanding game that's generally played by more traditional-minded (and less-demanding) shooters.
JMOFWIW, good luck, Joe

Let me say right now, thank you to all of you that have responded to this post. It’s given me, and I’m sure to others that are just reading the replies, a better understanding and feel between the high wall and the non high walls. I’d also would like to invite all of you that have just been reading the post to participate with it. don’t be afraid, we don’t bite, and yes we are civil in our opinions and thoughts on this and any topic.   

           I’d like to respond out of order of the replies to this posting. 

leadball:

                   You asked if my question dealt with lead bullet shooting as in Schuetzen, BPCR etc. I was just wondering about high walls as a whole. Yet I’m more interested in rifles more like my single shot rifle. Since I cast my own lead bullets, your assumption would be more correct then not. You mentioned that the high walls are harder to load and unload compare to I would assume the rifles with the external hammers. Am I correct in my understanding from your reply? 


DWS8130:

                 I do have a few questions that are geared more for the many other members on this forum, that just read the post and will not ask any questions. These questions are meant to help simplify a previous answer that was given. 

                 You spoke about how the high wall has “a much quicker lock time as well as less pre-ignition action torque due to having a lighter center hung hammer than the Sharps rifles you are used to.” Am I correct that you are stating that the hammer comes down faster and more direct on the primer then a side hammer does? And if sounded like that alone makes for a better group size and score on paper targets. I don’t have the expertise that you have in that area, yet it does not seem practical to me that the speed of the fall of a hammer and the center hung hammer can make that much of a difference. Then again this is why I made the post, you and others know more about this then I do, for now. I time I will be much more educated in this area. 

         Yes, I very much agree with you on why the Sharps were so much in demand in its time. Yes, history has shown that something new, no matter how much better it is…is not always quickly accepted. The history of guns has shown us this, especially during times of war. We, that is the government likes to stay with what has been proven to work in the past. They are slow to change. The Sharps had a hard and long battle to get into the Civil War. Enough on the history of the Sharps. That is not what this posting was intended for. Not a battle of the rifles, or rifle companies. Just some education and understanding on high walls. 

              You mentioned that there are a number of 'walls being currently produced, both here in the USA and abroad. Are they basically the same design, or are there variations in the design of a high wall? 





               You also stated in a reply that a “High wall will have an advantage over the sidehammer 74 in offhand shooting and in any type of paper target match where group size or score is measured.” Would that be the same if they were done on a shooting bench with bench rest front and back to keep it the same and fair? It’s just my opinion and observation that any shooting comparison that is not done from a controlled test, is susceptible to shooter error and not the guns fault. Even shooting from a shooting bench, has some error in it, yes that would be the shooter. 


Tommy
 
                I’m currently using IMR 4198 in mine. I loaded some test loads of IMR 3031 and shot them last week. They did well, yet I need to go back another day a see if they repeat their previous results. They ranged in the upper 1200 fps, compare to the mid to low 1000’s with my light loads of IMR 4198. Just try a few loads out and see for yourself. I used the 36-gr load for my test loads of IMR 3031.


     Now just so you all know, even if I wanted a high wall, I’m not selling my Shiloh Sharps, and I’m not wealthy enough to go out buying these rifles. Not all of us out here are that rich. Perhaps some of the guys that I shoot with have high walls, I’ll have to check this out at our next monthly shoot. 

Hope you all are having a great 4th of July.

Browning highwall 45 cal clones had 2 different barrels,  the limited production Creedmoor and BPCR editions were fitted with fast twist 1/18 Badger barrels at the Miroku factory.  Miroku made 45 barrels are 1/20.  A very few (couple dozen or less according to my source at Browning) late model B-78 tangless action were fitted with the badger barrels as part of the run-up to the special editions and sold out mixed in with the general production.  They were shortened and tapered to a sporter configuration and the only way to tell them from the run-of-the-mill '78 traditional rifles and traditional hunters is by measuring the barrel twist.
I do not know if Badger provided premium barrels for the 40-65 versions.

Sharps, Drew, and DWS--thanks for commemts/responses.  Changing gears from Hi-walls, in two days, I pick up my CPA Silhouette in .38-55; the suspense is almost unbearable!

Tommy (uteeqtee)

I haven't chimed in on this thread because I was a little unsure whether we were discussing real high-walls (from the old Winchester, or copied by Ballard Rifle, Meacham, or less well by a couple of others) or the Japanese High Walls which look like the former but only on the outside.   

     My love for the real high-walls is well documented and I won't go into all of the reasons here, but it should be mentioned at this point that Ballard Rifle is now making a faithful reproduction of the late (original) Winchester high-wall in TAKE-DOWN configuration.  Now we're talking!!        Everything that DWS just said can be duplicated in the new copy of the Winchester, and you will have a real high quality rifle.  As to the negative comments about difficulty loading, I would maintain that anyone with normal digital dexterity can easily load anything as long as a .25-20 SS or more.  I will admit that .22 short is difficult under a scope in a high-wall, but that's why we have low-walls!  That's my story and I'm sticking to it!   

Froggie

OK, let me chime in as well. As the person that originated this post, my question was not meant to be a difficult one. That is i was asking about the difference between high walls as a whole comapre to none high walls, as an examply but not the only examply would be my Shiloh Sharps...that is not a high wall. My actual statement was"I’ve never shot a high wall. Yet I’m wondering what is the benefit of the high wall or is there one? I own and shoot a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. And yes, I know they don’t make any high walls. Just curious about the high wall. " I would appreciate that on this post that any conversations that have to do with anything other the my high wall question be taken off line. I do understand how a posting of one question can bring on a discussion of something else that is not true to the post as hand. 

DWS8130, reply #12,

                               Your reply to this post was on the money. In short, your reply was more in what I was looking for. It was educational, it gave me a much better understanding about high walls...something that I know nothing about. You broke it down for me, and all others to understand. Thank you for your reply, and taking the time to explain the high wall and much more in that reply. Well done, and kudos. 

                                

Repeat after me

Sharps are ugly
High walls are beautiful

Sharps are ugly
High walls are beautiful

Sharps are ugly
High walls are beautiful



Gary

Brent,

         Don’t get me wrong, a question on something else is not a bad thing…just perhaps another thread on that question could be started or would be more appropriate. I’ve seen way too many threads start out in one direction… then one person starts it in another direction that the post was not intended for. That’s all I was concerned about. 

     I’m still confused on how the lock time a hammer would make a difference on how a rifle shoots. If you and I were to be at the same range at 200 yards, you with you high wall and I with my Sharps shooting the same loads… and all we were going to compare was the accuracy between the two rifles…does the high walls fast lock time make your rifle more accurate? And lets just for argument take away the human error, and lets say the rifles were in fixed bench rest, that is lock into place. I know that this is not how it would have been done, but just to eliminate any argument of human error. 

     Now as for the hammers themselves, yes I do absolutely agree with you on how heavy the Sharps Hammers are. I take it that the high walls are not as heavy. I can pull my hammer back with my thumb, yet it is not easy. I would think that there would be some difference in the rotational torque between the two hammers. Yes, perhaps it is a small difference. 

     I would have to say that the side hammer, well the one that I have is not easy to cock, and that would have been nice if it was. That is an advantage in the high wall, yet like all things in life you work with and live with what you have. So I’ll just get better at making my rifle easier for me to cock the hammer back. I’ll have one heck of a strong right thumb. 
   
          As for not having a high wall to compare to all I can say is when it comes to how a rifle carries and fits and fits really depends on the person. a rifle may carry well and fit one person great, and it may also be an excellent rifle to shoot, yet it may not be the say for another person. As I’m sure you could have 2 high walls that you could say fits and feels great where the other does not, and they are the same rifle. Just a thought not an argument.

     I think when it comes to having a rifle that will cock your hammer back is something of a personal preference. I for one, don’t care to have my hammer cocked until I’m ready to shoot it, and not before…that is purely my own opinion. 

     I can see where the high wall would have an incredible advantage if your shoot is under the clock such in SASS competition. The BP shoots give you plenty of time to shoot your Paper Target or Silhouettes. 

     As you can see you gave me allot to think about, and ponder over. This gives me a better understanding of the high wall, and when it’s spoken about around me, I’ll have more to say or not to say about it. Perhaps more better well developed questions about the high walls among my friends and other shoots. 
   

Brent,

       Thanks for the honesty and not beating around the bush, that's refreshing. You have many great points, and thanks once again for sharing your knowldge with myself, and the others out there that are reading this thread.

38_Cal,

     When I shoot, I’m always using my set trigger. It’s only at 15 oz. It’s just right for me. When I bench shoot, I’m using the Caldwell front and rear bench rest…the best one that they have. They are much better then standard sand bags. I’ve shot using sandbags for years, not as good. I just don’t think a faster lock time is that important to me or for my shooting. If I’m wrong, well I guess I’m the one that will pay the price. 

     Yes, you are correct on how fragile the firing pin is on the Sharps. 

               Well that's it for tonight, I'm casting bullets tomorrow morning and shooting with a friend and his son on Friday. This month is his sons first pig shoot. Were going up on the ranch up in the local hills to get in some shoot off of shooting sticks at 100 yards and some free hand shoot for the kid. It's nice seeing a young hunter and shooter taking to what we all have been having fun doing for years. 

PPS... don't listen to that guy from belgium. plug your ears. if you don't, you will end up with an arm load of martinies..

tt.g.

A while back I got a NIB Uberti Highwall carbine in a gun-trade deal. It's a 45/70 with a heavy 28" round barrel and very plain sights. But it does have a shot-gun buttstock. As of today, I haven't put any decent sights on it, so no shots have been fired thru the new barrel. Lookin' forward to makin' some smoke with it in the near future    .

Over the decades I have owned and shot a lot of the classical single shot rifles.  Overall I long ago concluded that the highwall is, on balance, ahead of anything else, including the sainted Farquharson.  Most of its virtues have already been mentioned, I would add parts interchangeability.  There is the famous story how in the very early 1900s three Cadillacs were disassembled into a huge pile of parts in England, then put together at random into three autos.  To the amazement of the Brits they all started up and ran without having to hand fit anything.  It is the same with highwalls. Even most barrels and blocks will interchange without headspace problems.  The prime disadvantage, in my opinion, is the lack of a through stock bolt like a Ballard or Borchardt.  Of course this can be remedied readily, without altering the tangs of the action, by fitting a T shaped lug over the tang bolt.   If you are careful you can drill existing stocks for the through bolt, though most of us would hesitate to do this to an unaltered original factory rifle.  Forty years ago I had it done almost automatically to every high wall I acquired, not any more.  An ejector would also be useful on hunting rifles.  I have two, a Griffin & Howe .250 Savage and a Tom Burgess (Monte Kennedy wood) 6.5'06 that auto eject.  Have never tried to take them apart to see how they work.

Today was the monthly shoot at the Richmond Gun and Rod Club. 2 of the shooters there have high walls, one of them is Stevens and I forgot what the other one was. After now seeing what a high wall looks like in person, I now understand what everyone has been saying about them. Thanks to my fellow shooters for taking the time and showing their high walls to me. And for explaining the difference between a high wall and a low wall. Reading it here and seeing it, are two different things. I do appreciate all the info about the high walls from everyone; it’s been very helpful for me.