Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Traditional Rifle rules revisited (Read 38246 times)
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10624
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #60 - Jun 19th, 2013 at 6:05pm
Print Post  
Would that slight variation qualify or dis-qualify the action?
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JackHughs
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 648
Location: Riverbank
Joined: Sep 27th, 2008
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #61 - Jun 19th, 2013 at 8:01pm
Print Post  
I may have missed this.  Does the CPA action qualify for the Traditional Class?

JackHughs
  

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1155
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #62 - Jun 19th, 2013 at 10:57pm
Print Post  
Laurie
Thanks for the data on the Italian High Walls. I was not aware of their internal similarity to the originals. Based on your input, those actions/rifles should be good-to-go as traditional class rifles.
Frank
As far as I know, the Italian rolling block rifles are OK for the traditional class.
Jack
To the best of my knowledge the CPA is OK for the traditional class. It is my understanding, the only variation from the original is the wider receiver to accommodate a barrel shank large enough to accept 45-70 rim-size cartridges.
In all cases, it is not my call. Per the rules, it’s up to the Schuetzenmeisters of the ASSRA, ISSA, WSU and/or designated jury to make the final determination.
« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2013 at 11:10pm by RSW »  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
fallingblock
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 630
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #63 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 12:25am
Print Post  
Here are links to look at the different actions to see how they compare.
Cheers,
Laurie


Here is a link to the Uberti parts diagram on the VTI Parts web site.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

next is the FBW 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Modern Winchester from Japan

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Finally the Winchester 1885 flat spring

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
« Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2013 at 2:47am by fallingblock »  

Cheers,
Laurie
ASSRA Secretary & Archivist
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 7142
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #64 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 1:20am
Print Post  
Fallingblock,
I think you loaded the wrong diagram for the Japanese HW.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
fallingblock
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 630
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #65 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 2:49am
Print Post  
Fixed the link to the Japanese High Wall. Should be in bed!
Cheers,
Laurie

  

Cheers,
Laurie
ASSRA Secretary & Archivist
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #66 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 8:29am
Print Post  
In general The rules on modern reproductions of traditional rifles is that modifications made for safety are acceptable if they don't stray too far from the original design or modifications in the spirit of period gunsmiths. 
For instance The CPA is the same shape and size as the original 44 1/2 except that the action is 1/16" thicker. This was done to use the larger Winchester size shank so that .45 size cartridges could safely be mounted on the action. 
The only other design difference is the bushed firing pin. This was a modification that was done for safety back in the day and there were as many variations as there were gunsmiths. 
I am not against rewriting the Traditional rules as long an all 3 Schuetzen organisations agree on the changes together. Its bad enough that the few of us that are left divide ourselves up but 3 different sets of rules will be a hopeless mish-mash for the average shooter much less the new shooters we are trying to attract. 

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JackHughs
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 648
Location: Riverbank
Joined: Sep 27th, 2008
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #67 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 10:04am
Print Post  
40_Rod wrote on Jun 20th, 2013 at 8:29am:
In general The rules on modern reproductions of traditional rifles is that modifications made for safety are acceptable if they don't stray too far from the original design or modifications in the spirit of period gunsmiths. 
40 Rod


Hi John,

Thanks, that's helpful as I've paid little attention to the Traditional class over the years.    

I'm curious as to the status of benchrest Schuetzen competition prior to 1917.  I assume that benchrest competition existed but, maybe not.

I know that there were a number of interesting benchrest devices available such as the Pope muzzle rest, the Mann device, and a two-point barrel rest but the only references to those devices seem to be for test purposes.

So, assuming that pre-1917 benchrest competition existed, what was the course of fire and what would a state-of-the-art competition benchrest rifle and bench setup look like.

I ask because somehow the idea of benchrest shooting a "traditional" rifle from a Randolph rest and Edgewood Gator bag just seems well, you know - not traditional.

JackHughs



  

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1155
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #68 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 11:58am
Print Post  
Jack
I'm going out on a limb here and I'm sure someone will come along a saw it off behind me BUT I do not think there were bench rest matches in the original schuetzen era similar to what we (ASSRA, ISSA) shoot today. Right up to about 1900, bench rest shooting was dominated by muzzle loaders. The big money matches held by the CSU or other big associations, were offhand events.
Now this part is speculation; I'm not an ASSRA historian but bench rest matches as we now shoot them came about when the ASSRA came into being in late 1940's. One of the main drivers creating bench rest shooting was that people who could afford the old offhand schuetzen rifles were older and past their prime for offhand shooting (me included).
It might also be insightful for all following this thread to read the ASSRA, ISSA and WSU traditional rules. They are nearly identical in defining traditional rifles. If one were to build/buy a traditional rifle that fit the rules of one of those organizations, that same rifle would be acceptable as traditional by the other two organizations.
With any luck, a real historian will get on me, like ugly on an ape and set us all straight about bench rest history.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
JackHughs
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 648
Location: Riverbank
Joined: Sep 27th, 2008
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #69 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 1:01pm
Print Post  
Hi Randy,

I agree that all those interested in the topic should start by carefully reading the current ASSRA, ISSA, and WSU rules governing the traditional class.  I have read them all and believe that the rules are clear, concise, and well thought out.   

If there was little or no benchrest schuetzen competition prior to 1917, the Rules make even more sense because there is no such thing as "traditional" benchrest competition.  The Rules simply define a specific class of firearm (including sights, cartridges, and loading techniques) that can be used in modern benchrest competition. 

The inclusion of post-1917 externally adjustable scopes is not to be despised.  These scopes are a practical necessity for a traditional rifle to be usable in a modern benchrest environment.

I like the Rules as written.  However, it might be fun to recreate a pre-1917 bench setup using pre-1917 scopes and iron sights just to see how it feels. 

JackHughs   

 

"Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed. Currently there are no restrictions placed upon any equipment other than the rifles, sights, cartridges, and loading techniques."

  

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Steve Garbe
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 19
Joined: Sep 20th, 2010
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #70 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 7:07pm
Print Post  
Gentlemen,

I know that what the WSU does in it's competitions doesn't have any bearing on the ASSRA but it might be insightful for the purpose of discussion.

The Traditional Class rules for Schuetzen address only offhand shooting as this is what Schuetzen competition was. The National Rifle Club was the original organization devoted to rest shooting and those Traditional Class rules have a technology cutoff of 1900. If we (the WSU/NRC) have a bench match it is under NRC rules. If we have a Schuetzen match it is under WSU rules. We don't combine/confuse benchrest with offhand, but that is just what we do. Not saying that any other organization should follow that lead.

On the topic of traditional actions the general rule is that
parts of the reproduction action should fit original production with a minimal amount of fitting...basically, true to the original patent.

There seems to be an idea that the Open Class is somehow a "leper colony". Not at all true, an Open Class serves the function of letting anyone shoot as long as they have a single shot rifle shooting plain base lead bullets. And (not to dump gas on a potential wildfire) in the WSU this means that the dreaded bolt-action rifle, both in traditional (pre-1917) and open dress, can compete. We hold hard to the dates on technology cutoffs and accept equipment that falls within those dates rather excluding rifles and sights that were available but not well-known at our present time. 

We do allow a Traditional rifle to be eligible for the high score in both classes as a nod to the added effort required to compete at a high level with vintage equipment. At our last NRC match a traditional rifle shooting black powder turned in the high Open Class score, as it wore a Lyman scope and as such was in the Open Class of the NRC. It competed against some very modern single shots including a .32 Miller shooting smokeless powder. 

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10624
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #71 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 8:30pm
Print Post  
In 1880 the Directors of the Massachusetts Rifle Association held the their first Schuetzen benchrest match and adopted the Standard American Target in 1886. The rifles used in the first rest matches staged by the Massachusetts's Rifle Association were the same as used for offhand shooting. The use of telescopic sights was adopted in 1898. The first perfect of 10 consecutive shots with the breach-loading rifle at 200yds rest on the Standard American Rest target (on which the 12 ring is but 1.41 inches in diameter) was made by H.L. Willard on the Walnut Hill Range in June, 1885. He also made the second and third similar perfect scores on the same target at the range a few weeks later. The first women to make a 10 shot possible on this target at 200 yards rest was Mrs. E.E. Patridge who made this score at the Walnut Hill Range on June 22nd 1895, her second on August 28, 1897. Miss Minnien Schenck also accomplished this same feat.
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10624
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #72 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 8:42pm
Print Post  
I might also add L.C. Cummings patented June 14, 1892 and sold a enternaly adjustable scope. Scopes of 20X were also available as we're varible power scopes prior to 1900.
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Steve Garbe
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 19
Joined: Sep 20th, 2010
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #73 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:31am
Print Post  
J. Louis,

The NRC was formed in the late 1850's, I believe, and was dedicated to the pursuit of accuracy with the rifle. Many clubs adopted rest shooting afterwards, but the National Rifle Club was generally accepted as being the first focused on rest shooting. Rules varied from club to club but string measure was most often the technique for establishing scores in the NRC.

Steve
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10624
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle rules revisited
Reply #74 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 1:27am
Print Post  
Steve thank you for the information on the NRC. It appears those Matches mentioned at the Mass. Rifle Club were the first ones to be included into the Schuetzen Match programs as we now know it, that being restricted to single shot falling block actions. I have been offered access to research material that might help to answer or to define those traditional rules and the means and methods of how they shot off the benches. Hopefully there will also be some defined equipment used such as the power of the optics, types, mounts, internally, externally adjusted as well as front and back rest setups etc. Historical information that may have been forgotten over time and might be becoming individualistic speculation/perception?
« Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2013 at 1:37am by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 
Send TopicPrint