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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schützen - Zimmerstutzen (Read 109588 times)
Fred Boulton
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #120 - May 31st, 2010 at 2:58pm
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Attached are pictures of my home made breech seater for my Buchel: waste of time as all it does in effect is increase the capacity of a case which is already too big.
Also a 3 time magnification scope which fits to the top rib in a purpose made mount. The scope is made by "Iskop" in Wetzler.

Anybody seen one of these before?
Fred
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #121 - May 31st, 2010 at 6:59pm
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Hi Dick!

Your old diopter looks visually exactly like our SEIBERT-Diopter. I found it in our traditional shooting rules. The picture is taken out of an old catalogue from the 1920ies.

I tried to translate the German expressions for you, I hope they are correct and understandable.
Roll Eyes

   Biggi
  

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trapdoor Dick
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #122 - Jun 1st, 2010 at 10:48am
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Biggi, you are a man of many wonders.  Wink It is without a doubt the sight that is on my ZS. You have added immensly to my knowledge of the history of the rifle. The 1920"s period fits with my interpretation of general time of manufacture. And if you have any luck with the name, would pin it down even more and add to our knowledge base. Again, not to be maudlin, but thank you.

Dick

PS Now that we know what this sight is, do we have any more info on it's legality in ASSRA matches?? Undecided
  

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Schutzenbob
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #123 - Jun 1st, 2010 at 1:05pm
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Friend Biggi,

I know you said that you like to try rifles out to see if they fit you properly and you would only buy one that “fits like a glove.” I think it’s very likely that all of these offhand rifles once had dimensions made to order, do any of your friends make custom stocks for feuerstutzen? Do you have particular dimensions; length of pull, height of comb, etc., that you look for in a feuerstutzen?

Bob 
  
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trapdoor Dick
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #124 - Jun 1st, 2010 at 1:23pm
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Tell ya what group. When I make a mistake, it's generally a good one.  Embarrassed   To this point, I have to appologize to Biggi and all of you. Somewhere I either missed or it never registered in my feeble brain that our friend Biggi was of the female gender. She is a wellspring of knowledge and her sharing this with us, a resource we haven't had very often in any arena. So please accept my appology Biggi, and  to rephrase my last post...

"Biggi, you are a woman of many wonders."

Dick
  

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb. - Benjamin Franklin
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feuerbixler
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #125 - Jun 1st, 2010 at 6:26pm
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Hi Dick,

thanx for the correction-posting about gender. *grin*  Wink Cheesy Grin

Nice that we have found now the correct identification about your diopter. Don't you have uniformly rules made by ASSRA for the German rifle matches? (I didn't find anything in the web...)

Since we have our traditional shootings (since approx. 20 years), there were also all the time discussion about permitted and forbidden accessory or "pimp up" of the old Stutzen. So we created a few years ago the first rules with a lot of pictures out of old catalogues. And now we have those nearly perfect guidelines and nobody can still say "Oooohhh, I didn't know this!"

Especially for the Bavarian Championships we need the rules, because there the conditions for all participants have to be the same. Only allowed diopters, no additional barrel weights, original stock style and so on.

Other shootings (like prize-shootings) write down in their invitations that the rules of Bavarian Sport Shooting Association are valid. So they have less discussions with the shooters, when they arrive with forbidden accessory.

On my homepage you can take a look at our rules (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links), perhaps you should create something like that for ASSRA matches? 

Finally, I think your original SEIBERT diopter is allowed in any case, because it's built before WWII.

  Biggi  Smiley

  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #126 - Jun 2nd, 2010 at 11:52am
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Hi Schutzenbob!

About your question to the different stocks, which should most suitable "fit like a glove".

In former times, there were a lot of mail order companies where you could get your fire-rifle or zimmer-rifle out of the catalogue. The different systems (Aydt, Martini, etc.) and different stocks were shown there. 

A stock with "Swiss Cheek" or "Bavarian Cheek" fits nearly everybody, because you can slide on the wooden stock cheek to your favourite position. 

With "Tyrolean Cheek" and "Vienna Cheek" you had also in former times more problems to find a fitting one to your own physiognomy.

Examples see first figure below.  Smiley

I think most of the shooters in former times bought their fire-rifle or zimmer-rifle ready-made "from the shelf". Because going to a stock-carver was also at that time expensive. And I think, that most of the shooters had to make compromises between the prize and the fitting to the physiognomy...

I believe, there are a lot of parameters for carving a fitting stock. The position and height of the wooden cheek, the angle between the barrel and the both final-points at the end of the stock and the length of the stock and surely a lot more. And also the used system, because normally a Martini is marginally lower than an Aydt-system.

Examples see second figure below.  Smiley

Nowadays with a modern small-bore .22 cal match rifles, you have the possibility to adjust all parameters with screws and Allen-wrench fitting to your physiognomy. So you need no stock-carver anymore.

        Biggi  Smiley


  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #127 - Jun 2nd, 2010 at 12:06pm
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Nowadays, the variety for right-handed-shooters is normally big enough, if you want to buy a fire-rifle or zimmer-rifle. 

But if you are a left-hand-shooter, it is really difficult to find a good and fitting one.

If you find a good right-hand-rifle but you need a left-handed one, you have to go to one of the last stock-carvers we have in Bavaria. This manufacturer can make the perfect stock for you. But it is expensive. 

I know somebody who has bought a left-handed-stock there last year. I'll meet this shooter next week, so I can ask him, how the manufacturer proceeds while "tailoring" the custom-stock.

In former times there was even patent (in the year 1900) for a machine for finding the parameters for fitting stock...
Wink Cheesy

...it seems to be a very difficult job to custom a stock!  Shocked Shocked  Grin

  Biggi  Smiley

  

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40-65tom
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #128 - Jun 2nd, 2010 at 6:17pm
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Biggi
Are you aware of any shops that are currently making optical attachments like the Fernrohr-Diopter Sperber shown on your website? I bought a reproduction of E-bay and it works great, just would like to find another. Great website and I am learning tons of stuff from this thread. Just so you know I have three Zimmers and three centerfires.

Tom
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #129 - Jun 3rd, 2010 at 2:29pm
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Hi 40-65 Tom.

Interesting question about buying nowadays those replicas. Truth be told: I don't know. I only know a precision mechanic factory, which builds exactly old diopter-sights.

Would you be so kind to post some detailed pics of your ebay-purchase? It's interesting for me to view such a reproduction. Is there written a manufacturer on it?

Greetings from Bavaria
           Biggi

  

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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #130 - Jun 4th, 2010 at 10:26am
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Biggi
I will be happy to post pictures, but I am currently away from home. Next week for sure. The optical device has no name on it. I threaded the front of my Buchel eyecup to accept the device and it works well.

Tom
  
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #131 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 1:43am
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feuerbixler wrote on Apr 23rd, 2010 at 6:01pm:

Do you score the circles in a historic competition or only the bull's eyes? If you score circles, how much circles has your target? And which diameter has the target and the bull's eye?

Biggi



Haven't seen a response to the above request and as I had an opportunity to compete this weekend (for the first time), here's a target (Iron sights @ 200Y, outside diameter = 30.48 cm, for 22RF Benchrest) used at the Wyoming Schützen matches held annually during June…

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

The reverse is printed w/ a bull sized at 15.24 cm (6 inches) for pre-1917 scoped rifles. Scoring is by "the ring, (best edge). It was a two day match, but I was unable to shoot in first half, had fun even w/ the DNF.

HTH…
Richard

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« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2010 at 1:50am by deadwooddick »  
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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #132 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 6:08am
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Hi deadwooddick.

Thx for showing the target. Very interesting! If you hit outside the rings, it is always a "zero"? It is not possible to shoot a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 ring, thus the lowest ring is the "10"?

Hhhmm, what means "pre-1917 scoped rifles"? What is the difference with the scopes? I don't know this, because we have only our quite normal old fire-rifle diopters. Others are not allowed.

  Biggi  Smiley
  

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Re: Schützen - Zimmerstutzen
Reply #133 - Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:52am
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Biggi
I have attached, I hope a picture of the optical device. There is no makers name on it. To focus the screw is loosened and the silver part is moved. The sight is off my Buchel. The key also shown is one I made to look like the ones in the catalogs.

Tom
  
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the Wyoming Schützen Union target
Reply #134 - Jun 8th, 2010 at 8:08pm
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feuerbixler wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 6:08am:
Hi deadwooddick.

Thx for showing the target. Very interesting! If you hit outside the rings, it is always a "zero"? It is not possible to shoot a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 ring, thus the lowest ring is the "10"?

Hhhmm, what means "pre-1917 scoped rifles"? What is the difference with the scopes? I don't know this, because we have only our quite normal old fire-rifle diopters. Others are not allowed.

   Biggi  Smiley


Biggi,

The target paper is 26 inches (66.04 cm) square. I'm thinking that a competitor using this target at 200Y (182.88 m) who was missing it altogether (outside the 10 ring), might consider another "sport."  Roll Eyes 

Scoring rings out to #1 would require a target that's 38 inches square (96.6 cm) which I "think" is beyond most print shop capabilities.

Are images of your targets available ?

Richard

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