Biggi,

Yes, there were many fine guns lost in the last world war, but luckily many GI’s brought German Schutzen rifles back from Europe as souvenirs and even today, 65 years later, there are Aydt rifles that show up here locally that have been in storage since the war. Unfortunately, most of these old rifles are missing their original sights and so we are always looking for replacement diopters, etc.

Bob

As far as I know the told story, in 1945 in Germany the things happened like follows:

The Allied forces collected all the weapons, also the sport arms or hunting-shotguns and fire-rifle/zimmer-rifle. Not all were destroyed immediately, but the expensive-looking ones and also the sportarms wehrmann-büchse / wehrmanns-gewehre were collected separately.  In that offices or storehouses the rifles were separated from the diopters. With wehrmanngewehr (very military-looking!), they proceed like that, they put the lever-bolt out and stored them separately from the rifle in different crates. They wanted, that the arms are at the moment not able for shooting. 

In US (or perhaps also in GB), the crates came to different storehouses. Lot of years later, they found again these crates with the fire-rifles, but they didn't look for the crate with the diopters. So the fire-rifles went out without the peep-sights. Nobody knows, where the crates with the peep-sights are went to...

Also the wehrmann-rifles. They put together the lever-bolt and the rifle, but didn't look about the hammered type-numbers. So all the collected wehrmann-rifles (which came back to the shooters) have nowadays different numbers from lever-bolt and rifle. If you find one with equal and correct numbers at all marked parts, you know that this wehrmann-rifle wasn't collected in 1945 by the Allied forces. So it's a rifle, which was hidden stored in an attic or cellar.

Would you be so kind to look about those lost crates with the diopters?  


Biggi

Hello...

...in the Tom Rowe books (Vol. II / page 250) is written, that they couldn't find a "Neumann System I" like it is in an old catalogue shown. 

Now we have found one specimen, I made some pics of it last Saturday.

Biggi

Yes, there were a lot of different but famous gunsmiths and makers more than a 100 years ago all over Germany. 

Most of the rifle systems were built in Suhl / Thuringia and the surrounding area. There were also all those component suppliers for parts and the famous engravers and carvers. 

The gunsmiths all over Germany bought almost all parts and components in Suhl and mounted them in their dealer's workshop. Then they marked their name onto the barrel. But the parts were built nearly only in Suhl.

Some makers who invented their selves a new system, were more expensive I think. And so the unusual "self-made" systems are also nowadays very very rare.

Also all those famous Munich gunsmiths are not documented until now. A few months ago I tried to find out more about the "family tree" of the Munich's gunsmiths since 1850. Because I was wondering about, why some gunsmiths only existed for a few years or decades. So I found out, that a lot of them were assumed by another gunsmith or two gunsmiths united their shops and a short time later they gave the shop a new name. A lot to do for examining this topic...

        Biggi

Hi Bob!

We normally use only old and very old rifles. We have a gunsmith who rebuilts exactly an old Aydt (for e.g.). But this is much more expensive, than buying an old good one. It costs between 6000-7000 Euro (approx. 7500-8500 US$). From that new Aydt-fire-rifle from ex-GDR (Suhl) I've heard already, and I think this must be that one, a good friend of me has bought last year for a very good prize. I have to ask him, if this is a "Schilling"-rebuilt.

There is another gunsmith who builds rifles with 8.15x46R barrel, but he doesn't uses old rebuild components. The system isn't constructed like the old model-pattern. Also the diopters are new sport-sights. So those fire-rifles are not acceptable for traditional shooting, but they are cheaper (2500 Euro = approx. 3100 US$).

For a good old one (not carved or engraved) you pay about 1800 to 2500 Euro (2200 to 3100 US$). And this is less, than for a new one. If you have enough time to search one, then you can wait for a good offer. And you have to look for a fire-rifle, which fits with the Tyrolean cheek-stock perfect to your own physiognomy. This is the most difficultest act while buying an old fire-rifle...


           Biggi

Hi Bob!

Thx for that URL, I didn't know that page until now. 

One year ago we made a journey to Suhl and Zella-Mehlis to visit there the museums of arms-history. Very interesting! But more than 40 years of GDR has nearly nothing left of the former gunmaker-tradition...

Biggi

Hi waterman.

I think, there are two different reasons to buy an old German fire-rifle. If you are a collector and you find somewhere in US or an other country a very nice specimen, engraved, carved or rare system, you buy it perhaps for your collection. But the really nice collector-pieces are normally expensive, in GER also in US.

If you are a shooter and you want to buy a simple fire-rifle only for shooting, there are other reasons to note. It is important, that the barrel is inside not defect, the mechanism of the action is okay, the stock-styling fits to your cheek. So the shooter buys a fire-rifle preferred here in Bavaria, so that he might shoot for testing with the rifle before buying. If he buys from far away (only seen before on pics), he might be disappointed and cannot shoot with it.

But I know some friends, who have already bought old fire-rifles from US. They are collectors and wanted that piece for their collection.


   Biggi

Biggi,

     I'm pretty sure the practice of breech seating, as well as that of muzzle-breech loading (where the bullet is muzzle loaded to a prescribed point in the barrel then a case with powder and primer is loaded in the normal way) were both American developments.  I don't know where the breech seating actually originated, but the muzzle-breech loading has been credited to Haynes and the builder Schalck, if memory serves.  You know we Americans can never leave well enough alone and are always trying to do something new! 

Froggie