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Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) (Read 43077 times)

Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Aug 28^th, 2009 at 10:28am	Print Post
	I have a martini type action marked "Stevens Bisley Model" on the frame and has a J Stevens arms and Tool Co stamp on the barrel. I am not able to locate any information on this model when I tried to research it. Can any one point me in the right direction. I have someone asking to buy it and not a clue as to what a fair value would be. TIA


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moshannon Full Member Offline Posts: 152 Location: SW PA Joined: Aug 8^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #1 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 12:24pm	Print Post
	That model is mentioned in one of Grants books. Not sure which, but I believe it is either More Single Shot Rifles or Still More Single Shot Rifles. I am at work now but can check later if someone else dosn't respond first. Mike

	ASSRA & NRA
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Crown-C Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 445 Location: St. Marys Kansas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #2 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 12:55pm	Print Post
	Ken, Under the thread " Collecting Single Shots" we have been dicussing the Stevens Bisley. No one has answered back yet about it. The one at Kull Auction brought $1.050.00. I have no idea what it's value is other than what that one sold for. Maybe others can help.

	Richard Crown-C Ranch in the Flinthills NRA Life Member ASSRA Member # 10366 Member & Founders Society, Cody Firearms Museum Veteran
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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #3 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 1:10pm	Print Post
	It's described by Grant in "Still More Single Shot Rifles" on pages 12 to 14 as the rarest Stevens. Listed in Stevens' 1910-1911 English catalog. Apparently only 10 made. Value? Considerably more than the $1050 auction price, but I'm a serious 22 shooter.


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Gone Fly Fishing Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2071 Joined: Feb 26^th, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #4 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 1:56pm	Print Post
	Hi Mr. Ken: I would like to personally welcome you to the ASSRA Forum and am delighted that your first posting is such an interesting and unique S.S. rifle. There are a number of J. Stevens rifle collectors who are among us, and I feel certain they also will benefit from your posting and photo. Your rifle appears to be in excellent condition and I was wondering if you would care to say more about it's performance as a "shooter" Again, welcome and best wishes with your rifle. Creedmoormatch


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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #5 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 4:54pm	Print Post
	Thanks to all that took the time to answer. Would never have thought it might be that low a production. I do not have Grants book, is it still available or has it been long out of print? Although I have had the gun for a number of years I have never shot it.
	« Last Edit: Aug 28^th, 2009 at 5:01pm by Ken »

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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #6 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 4:55pm	Print Post
	Another viw of the barrel markings


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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #7 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 4:57pm	Print Post
	Proof Marks


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #8 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 5:20pm	Print Post
	Hello Ken, I may be well off the mark here, but the rifle looks very like one of the small BSA Martini actions made in the early 1900's. The 'Proof Marks' are British and the rifle would have to be 'Proved' either on construction in Britain or if it was imported here, prior to sale. It would be interesting to know if there are any other 'Bisley' survivors and if they too have British Proof Marks. I note that there is a hole in the trigger guard for a sling swivel, Is that something found on other Stevens rifles?. It isn't at all unusual on British made Martini's It wasn't uncommon in the late 1800's to early 1900's for manufacturers to 'buy in' actions from other makers, perhaps Stevens did this with the 'Bisley' model. As the name 'Bisley' is of course synonymous with the famous English range of the same name the use of it may have been a bit of 'advertising' by the Stevens company. Itwould be interesting to compare side by side this rifle against some of the BSA made actions of the period and do some elementary measuring up. If only a handful of these rifles were constructed it's hardly likely that Stevens would have tooled up to manufacture such low numbers, so my 'bought in' theory may be correct. If nothing else it would certainly be worth stripping the action to see in there are any hidden markings. On the tip of the fore end is a round object. If this unscrews there should be found inside a number of foresight inserts. This item was typically fitted to BSA series 12 and 12/15 rifles and is common on .22 British target rifles, but not, I believe, on American rifles. I'd be obliged if you could check out this item and report back. Comments please gentleman. Harry
	« Last Edit: Aug 28^th, 2009 at 5:35pm by »

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moshannon Full Member Offline Posts: 152 Location: SW PA Joined: Aug 8^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #9 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 6:21pm	Print Post
	I believe Still More Single Shot Rifles is available from Buffalo Arms. According to this book, it was marketed in the Stevens catalog 1910-1911 (English Edition) as the Model #600. And in an article in the Feb 1969 Guns Magazine, a short paragraph spoke of how the 10 were outlawed from Bisley because they were too accurate. You might definitly have a diamond there. Mike

	ASSRA & NRA
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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #10 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 7:28pm	Print Post
	The action looks large to me, and my first thought was that it might have been a ex-military action that had been reworked. There are a number of extra sight inserts in the brass container at the front of the forearm.


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #11 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 7:54pm	Print Post
	Ken, Definitely not ex-military.

	Douglas, Ret.
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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #12 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 9:04pm	Print Post
	Perhaps Harry or Fred could follow up on the "ruled off the field at Bisley" rumor. It is probably reasonable to assume that Stevens bought a dozen or so BSA actions and built rifles around them. I believe Remington did the same thing in the 1920s. Please spring for a couple of boxes of high-end ammo and tell us what the rifle will do from the bench at 50 & 100 yards. To me, this is the most exciting rifle to be discussed in years. Waterman


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #13 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 9:20pm	Print Post
	I am looking at Harold Strong's book from 1993. Page 72 is as follows. The STEVES-BISLEY MODEL. No.600. THE "MODELE DE LUXE" MINATURE TARGET RIFLE. This model, specially made for the English market, has been brought out at the express wish of our many friends in the United Kingdom. It has the well-known "Martini" action,which is so easy to manipulate, especially when rapid firing. It is eligible for use in all competions for Military Miniature Rifles. Weight- With 27-inch(Standard) barrel, 9 1/2 lbs. Barrel-Half octagon, Stevens Match quality Ammunition-Chamered and rifled for H.P.S King's Norton '22 Long Rifle Smokeless. Action-Martini pattern, with under-lever ejector, case hardened and special finish. Stock-specially selected oiled walnut stock and fore-end,well figured, neatly checkered, with horn cap to fore-end. Sights-B.S.A Aperture rear sight with adjustable eye-cup and Micrometer Windage and Vertical adjustments. Combination Ring and Bead, Bead and Barleycorn, or Ring and Knife-edge fore sight. Extras-Willesden or mail canvas covers, 7/6 each. Patent slings, 3/6 each. Price L5 5s This was a copy of page 17, I assume of the English Catalog Hope this is useful information. I have never seen one yet. The picture is a little different than you photo but that would not be unusual for Stevens to have some variations on individual guns.


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #14 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 12:15am	Print Post
	Hello Ken, Thanks for being so prompt with your reply and picture of the foresight insert holder. Definately a BSA item as are, apparently, the front and rear sights. Interestingly, mention of the rifle being made expressly for the use of H.P.S King's Norton '22 Long Rifle Smokeless ammunition is also revealing. Kings Norton is a suburb of the city of Birmingham (the home of BSA). The Kings Norton Metal and Ammunition Co (formed 1890) was a subsiduary of Kynoch. See :- (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) So we now have a rifle looking suspiciously like a BSA product, fitted with BSA sights front and rear and a BSA foresight insert holder. Proved in Birmingham, and the ammunition recommended for use in this rifle is also Birmingham made. Would the fact that it is possible that the whole rifle was made in Birmingham effect the value? I think not, the association with Stevens and their address, makes this rifle (if the alleged numbers produced are correct) almost, if not quite, unique, and certainly worth a lot more than a similar BSA marked rifle of the same period. If the rifle should prove to be BSA made, then you will have two sets of collectors wanting to relieve you of it. If your a young man, that rifle is your Old Age Pension investment Does anyone know if the BSA Factory Records exist? It shouldn't be too difficult to run down a small order from Stevens. As for checking out the Bisley 'Ban' rumour, I live at the opposite end of England I haven't been to Bisley since 1978 and I was pistol shooting at that time. I'm not in touch with anyone who may know either. However, Fred may know someone. It does appear to be a little rediculous that any rifle should be banned as 'too accurate', after all, the smallbore sport was set up to develope shooting skills and rifle accuracy. I wonder if it was a publicity stunt? American gun makers have done that sort of thing since the early days of Sam Colt. Harry
	« Last Edit: Aug 29^th, 2009 at 3:42am by »

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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #15 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 8:55am	Print Post
	Thanks for every ones help. Just ordered Grants book Target rifles are not my main interest, if I wanted to sell this gun is it best to send it to a well advertised auction house that specializes in firearms or does someone have a better idea? The problem I see with selling a gun like this is that there are not enough data points to establish a fair value or am I missing something


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moshannon Full Member Offline Posts: 152 Location: SW PA Joined: Aug 8^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #16 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 10:39am	Print Post
	You might actually want to try to get in touch with some of bigger collector/dealers of single shots. Gary Quinlan from near Philadelphia and Goergens Gun Shop in Austin, Minn. come to mind. They could definitly help with price points if they have seen others around at the large shows, although they will also want to have a very accurate description of the condition.

	ASSRA & NRA
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mdeland Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #17 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 2:15pm	Print Post
	I have two of the Australian cadets and this action looks a good bit bigger and of different profile to me. Neither of mine have a breech block pin as shown in the picture as the innards come out the bottom in a unit. I have a set of target sights on it that fit the Martini cadet action that are made by Parker-Hale. They look very similar to the ones in the photo. It has micrometer adjustment base with a selectable aperture disk. The selectable disk has six aperture settings. Not knowing much about Martini's in general I wonder if this is a full size action or perhaps a mid size if one was ever made. The finger lever is the wrong shape for a cadet as well it seems to me. MD


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k0wtz Junior Member Offline Posts: 90 Joined: Oct 6^th, 2008	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #18 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 2:55pm	Print Post
	shoot and i was going to offer 200.00 in cash now just kidding. what a find its amazing. why dont we have a stevens thread so i can find out about my stevens tip-up. the only way i will be able to figure it out is to send it to david kaiser in ia. been spending too much on my martini collection as of late after i got over the r/r benchrest rifle plague. keep gtoing and thanks i can compete in this game but its interesting. bob


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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #19 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 3:00pm	Print Post
	Hello all my first post. I may be able to add some information here. Firstly the brass sight element holder would more likely be marked Parker Hale containing elements for the foresight, the rear aperture sight looks like a Parker Hale mod 7A. The action is not a Francotte type and looks to be a converted Military large frame hence the description posted that it was eligable for Military Miniature matches or a pre Francotte made action this in itself would be unusual Certainly something different but the sights are much later than the action and changed sometime after manufacture. My little thoughts any more information out there? TJ.


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38_Cal Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2240 Location: Montezuma, Iowa Joined: Apr 27^th, 2005	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #20 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 3:13pm	Print Post
	I'm no expert by any stretch, but I know that there were multiple sizes of both "standard" actions and Francotte actions, that carried the breechblock, extractor and lever on a sub-frame...what I call the "works in a drawer" design. Just scaling from the rear sight, this appears to be one of the medium standard actions, shaped similarly to the Mk IV or Francotte designs. David Kaiser Montezuma, IA

	David Kaiser Montezuma, IA
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15771 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #21 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 4:09pm	Print Post
	Chances are it was either not banned, or if it was banned it was for some weight limitation for the class it was designed for. Sounds better if they said it was "too accurate" though! Welcome Ken!

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Fred Boulton Oldtimer Offline Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 6^th, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #22 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 4:46pm	Print Post
	Converted military actions were an "entry level" target rifle around 1900 /1910. Greener sold them at a slightly lower price than his "Military Miniature" which had the small Francotte type action--probably sourced from BSA. We have several of the conversions in our club, some of which retain the full military appearance and some looking like the "Stevens" rifle referred to above. The "Stevens" rifle was probably made in Birmingham in my opinion. I never heard of any rifle being banned for being too accurate. Progress in accuracy always resulted in a line of prospective purchasers waving money. Fred.


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #23 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 9:26pm	Print Post
	I see no BSA connection to this rifle. The Action is not BSA-Francotte. It may be a heavily reworked military action, but I doubt. It is a Martini action and not a Francotte. I don't believe Stevens made that action. This type action was available to the trade in the late 1800's and early 1900's and it was a common practice used by any number of English gun makers to use them to make custom rifles. This rifle could have been mine several years ago for a song. Ken, for you I am glad you couldn't find it that day. For me I have got some good mileage out of the M 12 and M1215 I did leave with.

	Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #24 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 10:49pm	Print Post
	If you decide to sell it and come up with an asking price, I would ask that you post it here in the for sale section and give us here a shot at buying it. I , for one am intertsted in it, if there is any way possible that I could afford it. This is a gun that I would not mind overextending myself on if it is anywhere in the realm of reason.


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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #25 - Sep 1^st, 2009 at 4:03pm	Print Post
	Giving some thought to the Proof marks shown and I am not an expert in this area. They are Birmingham proof marks for a UK made item as against imported and proofed here. And I would say that marked LR and Nitro proofed for something that early would not be right all marks I have seen and on rifles of that age I own are just L sometimes with the addition of.610" for case length. the LR was much later so could be a replaced barrel. particularly as the text posted from a catalogue mentions Part Oct/Round. I think that this has with the sights been upgraded to some degree. ammo. TJ.


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #26 - Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 1:52am	Print Post
	I think it is unlikely that the barrel is a replacement, it's hardly likely that anyone would go to the trouble of having a roll die made to replicate the original 'factory' markings. It's more likely perhaps that a round barrel was standard, as they are size for size cheaper to produce than octagonal or half and half designs. The small bore target rifle market in Britain in the early 1900's was a very competative business and anything that reduced the cost of producing the rifle without effecting its accuracy would be siezed upon by the manufacturer. I think we have all seen firearms advertised in advance of production that differed somewhat from the original description when it was marketed. Its happened to me. The .22 Long Rifle cartridge was well established by the time this rifle was advertised, the advert stated that it was being chambered for a specific .22" LR round by a named manufacturer. The .22" Long Rifle cartridge was developed by Stevens in 1887 by taking the case from the .22" Long cartridge and fitting the 40 grain bullet from the .22 Extra long cartridge. Small Bore rifle shooting was really at it's zenith around the end of the first decade of the 20th.C. in Britain and there was a lucrative market for rifle sales. Stevens can't be blamed for wanting to cash in on such a market. Stevens problem was 'how to do it' The most economical way would be to have the rifle made in Britain in it's entirety. Get a manufacturer to build the rifles on an existing action, or surplus actions from a production over-run using sights and sight insert holders that were already in mass production and therefore cheaper than any new design. The clue's are tantalising, almost certainly a Birmingham Gunmaker, but who? BSA, probably, but Webley or Greener are possibilities. Matching the action to one known to be made or imported by one of the Birmingham Gun Makers would be a good starting point. Harry
	« Last Edit: Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 7:40am by »

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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #27 - Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 4:44pm	Print Post
	Harry All you say is of course true however the sight holder and sights are 1930's. I would still like to know more of the proof marks I am aware that LR was in use but still the proof marks pre WW1 were as I mentioned above and of course Nitro Proof was not compulsory until the 1920's. An interseting puzzle all around. I wish I had looked closer at the Part Oct/round barreled Stevens I briefly saw a while ago. TJ.


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fallingblock ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 630 Location: Wisconsin Joined: Apr 16^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #28 - Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 5:20pm	Print Post
	As far as the action it looks like any of the small Martini actions used by many of the English makers for the small martini Rook rifles. My guess is that they were made in Belgium and finished in England. Westley Richards made quite a few for the New South Wales Public Schools. Cheers, Laurie

	Cheers, Laurie ASSRA Secretary & Archivist
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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #29 - Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 5:22pm	Print Post
	When did Stevens discontinue the barrel marking "J Stevens Arms and Tool Co" ?


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #30 - Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 5:49pm	Print Post
	tjshooter wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 4:44pm: Harry All you say is of course true however the sight holder and sights are 1930's. I would still like to know more of the proof marks I am aware that LR was in use but still the proof marks pre WW1 were as I mentioned above and of course Nitro Proof was not compulsory until the 1920's. An interseting puzzle all around. I wish I had looked closer at the Part Oct/round barreled Stevens I briefly saw a while ago. TJ. Hello TJ The Proof Marks on the photograph of the barrel are:- Crown over BV = Birmingham Proof House 'View' mark from 1906. Crown over BP = the Birmingham 'Provisional' Proof mark, the Crown over NP = the definitive nitro 'Proof' mark from 1904. The action is marked with the Crown over BV within an oval cartouche this is again the Birmingham 'View' Proof mark. This rifle really does need a 'Forensic type Examination' by a serious .22 Rifle enthusiast/collector The rifle sights may well be an upgrade to a more recently Parker-Hale manufactured small bore rifle sights. Who knows what has happened to this rifle in the last one hundred years? So many questions, so many possible answers. Harry
	« Last Edit: Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 5:57pm by »

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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #31 - Sep 3^rd, 2009 at 4:13am	Print Post
	Ken, If you contact the people who run the Kull Auction House they may be able to put you in touch with the person who bought the Stevens Martini from them recently. If they can, you could compare notes and photographs and see what features match on both rifles and what parts dont. You could also ask about the proof marks and their positions on the barrel and action. You would be doing Stevens collectors and single shot rifle enthusiasts in general a great service by doing so. I'm sure that many Forum members and perhaps the ASSRA Magazine editor would like an article on your findings. Harry


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #32 - Sep 3^rd, 2009 at 8:15pm	Print Post
	Harry, Tried to google Kull Acution Service. Couldn't come up with anything. Suggestions?


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #33 - Sep 3^rd, 2009 at 9:12pm	Print Post
	(You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Item 1438

	Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #34 - Sep 3^rd, 2009 at 10:12pm	Print Post
	Thanks. Sent them an email. Will advise if they are any help.


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #35 - Sep 4^th, 2009 at 1:50am	Print Post
	Slumlord44, I see the DoubleD has beaten me to it. I know I live on this Board but not at the time you posted, which in UK time was about 4.0am. I tried running the Kull Auction House picture through 'Photoshop' but couldn't enlarge the picture with any acceptable resolution. The description of the rifle is brief and not very informative, I hope you have better luck from contacting them. Harry


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Ken Participating Member Offline Posts: 19 Location: Hanover, PA Joined: Aug 27^th, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #36 - Sep 4^th, 2009 at 8:26am	Print Post
	I called Krull a few days ago to see if they could send my contact info to the buyer of the Bisley Model they sold in August. As of now I have heard nothing back


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terry buffum Full Member Offline Posts: 143 Location: Bend, Oregon Joined: Feb 11^th, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #37 - Sep 4^th, 2009 at 12:38pm	Print Post
	These auctions used to be called "Kull-Supica Old Town Station Auctions". Jim Supica is or was a director of the NRA and contributor to the "I have this old gun" section of the American Rifleman magazine. His business was or is "Supica's Old Town Station." He is a Smith & Wesson collector and author of at least one book. If the auction house is non-responsive, I suggest you try to track down Mr Supica, as he will certainly understand your interest in making contact with the buyer.

	Life Member #205
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15771 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #38 - Sep 4^th, 2009 at 8:43pm	Print Post
	Terry, Jim sold his part of the business and quit. He is now the curator of the NRA museum.

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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #39 - Sep 5^th, 2009 at 2:48pm	Print Post
	Harry I follow all you say re the marks I still have some reservations as I own and have sight of 5 pre WW1 manufactured .22" rifles BSA's Greeners and a Bonehill conversion All of thse are only pre 1904 marks and 22L also same marks on a 1920's made .22"BSA. Even as late as 1935 a custom martini marked chambered and rifled for High speed ammunition does not carry LR mark only .22L and .610" (chamber length) the same on a 1930 ish relined Greener. So another question is ...Is this relined ? it could explain a lot. TJ.


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #40 - Sep 5^th, 2009 at 5:08pm	Print Post
	Hello TJ, As you say the rifle could have been relined, but without being able to examine it it's difficult to say. Perhaps Ken will have a look and see. As Stevens was an early'wildcatter' who put the original .22"Long Rifle cartridge together, he might have asked that the Proof house mark the rifles so, implausable, but not impossible. It will be interesting if details can be found out about the other Auctioned Rifle, a comparrison of details, especially the proof marks should be quite fascinating. I agree some rifles from the turn of the 20th.C. have few markings, yet I have seen some with that many proof house markings they look like the rifle has had a dose of smallpox. We'll just have to wait and see if any info is forthcoming about the other Stevens Martini. Harry


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #41 - Sep 6^th, 2009 at 9:30pm	Print Post
	(You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

	Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #42 - Sep 25^th, 2009 at 11:13pm	Print Post
	I completed a deal with Ken for the Bisley and it is comfortable in my collection as of yesterday when UPS delivered it. I shot it today at 25 yards and got decent groups considering that in the afternoon with the target in the shade I had trouble seeing the target. I have some more details after taking a good look at it in person. The front sight is a Parker Hale FS22 globe sight. The rear sight is a Parker Hale 17A that is mounted with the typical screws plus soft soldered on, apparently to make it fit better. The radius on the base of the sight does not match the radius on the back of the rifle. The mounting hole and dovetail under the front of the barrel for the front sling swivial has been soft soldered to fill it. Under the forearm the barrel is stamped EF and C7 and 3. The front of the frame behind the forearm is stamped 3 and 0. The muzzel end of the barrel looks like it has a liner in it and is stamped PARKER RIFLED AGP in a circle on the end of the barrel around the bore. The liner and the stampings look to be factory, but who's? Factory liner on a Martini/Stevens?? The serial # is 752 with a lightly stamped 0 in front of it and a lightly stamped 9 after it. There is also a lightly stamped 09 on the underside of the barrel in front of the forearm. The brass cap on the end of the forearm had two extra inserts in it for the front sight. I sure wish I could find another one somewhere to compare notes on! I am sure the rear sight has been changed. The front sight may have been changed. The stock and forearm MAY have been changed or may be original. They do not match the Stevens brochure. The Stevens markings on the barrel and action are correct as near as I can tell. Fun gun to shoot and an interesting puzzle and piece of history for sure!


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #43 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 3:07am	Print Post
	Hello Slumlord, This rifle gets more and more interesting as further details slowly emerge. It may pay to try and ascertain just when the Parker Hale front and rear sights were introduced as the date(s) may give a clue as to whether the sights were an aftermarket replacement. Have you had any reply from the auction house that sold a Steven Bisley last month, or from the Savage Firearms Collection? Early 20th.C. .22" Rimfire ammunition was pretty corrosive, unlike currently made .22" cartridges, so the barrel may have been relined in the past. Parker Hale did make liners and these were probably more readily available here in Britain than elsewhere. Again I am uncertain of when they were introduced, but finding out may provide another answer. Harry


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #44 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 12:30pm	Print Post
	I'm with Harry. This gets more & more interesting. Not only this rifle, but the whole matter of Stevens Bisley Models. Grant said it was a limited production run of only 10 rifles. In Finale (pages 4 & 5) he makes reference to Bisleys with serial numbers 37 & 52. The rifle that just passed from Ken to Slumlord has number 752. If someone can locate the Bisley that passed through the auction house, maybe we can add one more SN to the list of known numbers. Sure makes me wonder how the numbers were assigned. Also how many were really made up, by whom, and what is the survival rate? If the number was really only 10, we now know of 3 or 4. Is that unusual? Those Stevens Bisleys were made in 1910 or 1911. The numbers on the front of the action seem typical of Stevens. All 3 of my Stevens rifles have numbers stamped on the front of the actions, but then, my rifles all have 44 actions. Was it a common practice to mark the front of other British Martini smallbore actions? My guess is that the "09" was put on the action and barrel to keep track of the parts when the barrel was re-lined. Whoever lined the barrel may have had a lot of such jobs at the same time. Harry is also correct about the corrosive effects of early 22 ammunition, especially the smokeless stuff. Of late, I've been doing a lot of reading about the early years of smallbore shooting. In 1918, Whelen wrote that there was no known method of avoiding corrosion if the shooter used shells loaded with smokeless powder. In 1927, Crossman wrote that a German ammunition company had sold a lot of 22 RF target ammunition in the UK and the stuff had ruined a great many rifle barrels. One more thought. If Stevens had pushed the Martini-actioned target rifle in the US in 1919, instead of continuing with the 404-414 series, would they have given Winchester more competition in smallbore target rifle sales? Waterman


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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #45 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 3:39pm	Print Post
	Hi Slumlord The parker Hale sights would be 1930's onwards as is the brass sight element holder, the foresight for Martini rifles with a dovetail in the barrel and would the rear sight be a 7A? Bear in Mind Parker Hale did not exist as a company before that. The AGP reline also onwards from the 30's till post WW2 I would say latter part as I have thought before as the proof markings using LR as against L and chamber length is in my opinion after WW2. TJ.


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #46 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 8:27pm	Print Post
	Yes large Martini actions were serial numbered on the front of the action.

	Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #47 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 10:04pm	Print Post
	The 1930's date on the brass insert holder confirms my belief that the stock and forearm have been changed. According to the factory brochure the stock was checkered and the forearm was different. The sights seem to also be from the same time frame. The reline is probably from the same time frame. No matter what changes have been made, I am still thrilled to have it in my collection. I am still kicking myself for passing up a Stevens Sure Shot because it was not in good enough condition to suit me. I was not about to let ths one get away, modified or not. I sure wish this gun could talk! It has a lot more history if I could only find it. The auction company never contacted me. Would sure like to get a picture of that one, or any other one for that matter. Still looking for more on this model. There has to be another one somewhere. The one in Grants book probably still exists, but who knows where.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #48 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 10:07pm	Print Post
	tjshooter The rear sight is a Parker Hale 17A.
	« Last Edit: Sep 28^th, 2009 at 10:35pm by slumlord44 »

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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #49 - Sep 27^th, 2009 at 4:15pm	Print Post
	Hi Again The sight in the Photos is I would say clearly a PH Mod 7A you will find by pressing the button on the left side you can remove the top of the sight.These were made for Small Frame martini's (hence the not fitting the larger frame correctly) post 1934 following the Mod 7 and available into the 1960's. The Mod 17 was not introduced until the 1950's for the BSA Century bolt action .22" and is quite different. Mismarked along the way possibly. I am sure that you will enjoy this unusual rifle updated or not. I am as you may have noticed a Martini lover. TJ.


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #50 - Sep 27^th, 2009 at 10:00pm	Print Post
	The stocks on this rifle look machine made to me.

	Douglas, Ret.
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vigillinus Ex Member	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #51 - Sep 28^th, 2009 at 12:02am	Print Post
	That is a Parker installed liner in the barrel. The AG Parker name later changed to Parker Hale and they were still relining barrels in the early 1960s, in fact I shipped them a Remington No. 4 around 1964 that they relined for me. Still have it.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #52 - Sep 28^th, 2009 at 9:37pm	Print Post
	Got picture from Kuls. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)
	« Last Edit: Sep 29^th, 2009 at 8:01pm by slumlord44 »

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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #53 - Sep 28^th, 2009 at 10:19pm	Print Post
	tjshooter, You are correct about the sight being a 7A. I must need new glasses. Thought it was a 17A. I have another picture of the other side of the gun but can't seem to get it to post here. This is the first picture I have posted here so I at least am starting to get the idea of how to post photos. From what I can tell my entire stock has been changed. Not sure about the butplate. Am trying to get contact info on the new owner from Kuls or have them give my contact info to him. Sure do like that stock! Anybody know what the rear sight is? I am thinking Stevens but have to compare to Strobels book to see if I can match it up.
	« Last Edit: Sep 28^th, 2009 at 10:32pm by slumlord44 »

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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #54 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 2:27am	Print Post
	The photo just posted looks much more like the rifles in Grant's book (& Stevens catalog cut) than Slumlord's new rifle. The half round, half octagon barrel is like the catalog. Makes me think a new barrel replaced the original Stevens half round, and then (at a much later time) the new barrel was relined. That may explain the replaced wood. Also looks to me as if the buttstock of the rifle in the photo just posted has considerable more drop than Slumlord's rifle. If you were to use Slumlord's rifle for position shooting, the shape of the present stock might well be better suited than the original seen in the new photo. Waterman
	« Last Edit: Sep 29^th, 2009 at 8:40pm by waterman »

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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #55 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 9:53am	Print Post
	The rifle sold at Kul's and the Rifle shown in Grants do not look English, they look American. Half round barrels and checkering on the stock was not used on the English Miniature Military rifles at that time. About like putting checkering and half round barrels on your 03 Springfield to shoot Hi-power. True enough, checker and half round barrel were around, they just weren't the norm. The sight on the Kul's rifle and the Grant rifle looks to be a BSA 8. The stocks on this rifle look machine made for competition. The round barrel was more correct for an English rifle as octagons were used on cheap rifles at that time. Parkerrifled liners were used to replace shot corroded bore or to give a competitive edge. Some one later added the PH7A to upgrade the sights. This rifle was a competitors rifle.

	Douglas, Ret.
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tjshooter Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 2^nd, 2009	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #56 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 4:08pm	Print Post
	I too would say that the rear sight on the Kul's rifle looks like a long stem BSA 8. TJ.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #57 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 7:34pm	Print Post
	Here is the other picture from Kuhls. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)
	« Last Edit: Sep 29^th, 2009 at 7:49pm by slumlord44 »

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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #58 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 8:09pm	Print Post
	Ok, It took me many trys to get both photos posted properly. As far as the barrel on my Bisley, it is properly marked Stevens. It is round. It is possible that it could be a barrel from another model Stevens but I do not know how they would interchange. Stevens was know for offering different barrel configerations on the same rifles. This is one of the questions on my rifle. Another realy strange thing I noticed is that the Stevens name on the frame of the gun is on the left side on my gun and the right side on the Kuls gun. Makes no sense to me but the markings look right. Why would this be done?


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #59 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 9:04pm	Print Post
	DD's observation is correct. This is a competitor's rifle. Here's my guess as to what happened: A shooter (presumably in the UK) bought the rifle. He tried it and was satisfied with the accuracy of the Stevens barrel, but the barrel was too light and whippy. The whole rifle was more or less set up for offhand work. The shooter sent the barreled action back to Stevens for a heavier barrel. Upon return, the rifle was completely restocked for position shooting. At some time, the sights were changed, or maybe the shooter already had the sights. Barrel #2 was shot until it was corroded or lost accuracy. Then it was relined. Version 2 says the shooter special ordered a Bisley Model with a heavier barrel, maybe just a barreled action, and had the stock fitted in the UK. Waterman


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38_Cal Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2240 Location: Montezuma, Iowa Joined: Apr 27^th, 2005	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #60 - Sep 29^th, 2009 at 11:08pm	Print Post
	From the profile of the Kul's rifle and the photos of Slumlord's rifle, they appear to use the same buttplate. If his rifle has an off the shelf stock from another rifle, the odds that the Stevens plate would fit are slim to none. Sight unseen, whoever stocked this rifle took the time to fit the original buttplate...I think. Could it be a special order rifle, with the position style wood and the heavy round barrel? But...why go to Stevens when you had the services of AGParker, Greener, Bonehill, etc., available? All known and respected when it came to building .22 competition rifles in England. It's a puzzlement! David Kaiser Montezuma, IA

	David Kaiser Montezuma, IA
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #61 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 12:42am	Print Post
	Indeed it is a fascinating puzzle! I have pulled the butplate and there are very old chisel marks under the butplate that indicate hand fitting to me. It fits the stock very well. Hard to tell who did what. I need to pull the stock from the gun and see what I find. Stevens sometimes numbered their stocks to the gun but definately not always. I have an early Favorite apart on my bench that has the stock numbered to the gun. Kull's gave my contact info the the guy that bought their gun. He has contacted me and I just emailed him asking for any information that he may have. Having fun researching this. Still wish the gun could talk. All the scenerios presented are possible. I pulled the stock. No numbers on it or the forearm.
	« Last Edit: Oct 5^th, 2009 at 1:26am by slumlord44 »

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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #62 - Oct 5^th, 2009 at 1:03am	Print Post
	I got an email from the owner of the Kull's Bisley. The butplate on his is definitely the same as the one on mine. According to Steve, the Stevens London Catalog refered to the butplate as "engine turned". One more piece of the puzzle answered. This leads me to believe that the stock on mine may be factory. I said MAY be. The stock shows chisel marks under the butplate where it was fitted, but there is no way to tell if the factory did it or somone after the fact. I have thanked Ken before for giving me the chance to buy this fascinating piece of history, but would like to thank him agin here publicly. Thank you Ken.
	« Last Edit: Oct 5^th, 2009 at 1:18am by slumlord44 »

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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #63 - Oct 5^th, 2009 at 11:38am	Print Post
	Will the guy who bought the Bisley from Kull's share the serial number with us? Or offer us a hint? Like it's in the 50s or "a single digit" or somewhere around 750? I'm just curious about how many are out there and what is the range of serial numbers. waterman


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DoubleD Oldtimer Offline Posts: 635 Location: Cut Bank Joined: Feb 14^th, 2006	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #64 - Oct 5^th, 2009 at 12:26pm	Print Post
	slumlord44 wrote on Oct 5^th, 2009 at 1:03am: I got an email from the owner of the Kull's Bisley. The butplate on his is definitely the same as the one on mine. According to Steve, the Stevens London Catalog refered to the butplate as "engine turned". One more piece of the puzzle answered. This leads me to believe that the stock on mine may be factory. I said MAY be. The stock shows chisel marks under the butplate where it was fitted, but there is no way to tell if the factory did it or somone after the fact. I have thanked Ken before for giving me the chance to buy this fascinating piece of history, but would like to thank him agin here publicly. Thank you Ken. Final fitting and chisel marks are not uncommon, I see this on the Factory Martini's all the time. Lok in side the gun and you will se file marks from the final fitting of the metal parts. Standard practice back then.

	Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #65 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 8:41pm	Print Post
	A little additional info on the Kull Bisley. The serial # is a low single didget number. Serial #'s on the guns in Grants books are two didget #s. My Bisley has a three didget serial #. This would indicate a larger production run than the 10 guns that Grant sugested in his book. BUT, as anyone familiar with Stevens knows, Stevens sometimes had no logical sequence with serial numbers. The Kull rifle also has the chisel marks under the butplate. The cocking indicator on it is a sloted screw with an arrow engraved on the frame. Mine has the large cocking indicator that is commonly seen on Martini's. The 1911 Stevens Catalog #53 lists the Number 600 Martini, which is the Bisley, in the price list. This information is from the current owner of the Kull Bisley. He is an avid Stevens collector. I expressed an interest in buying it if he ever decided to part with it. Wish I could find another Bisley owner out there to compare notes with.


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Jim Hallam (UK) Newbie Offline Posts: 7 Location: Bisley, U.K. Joined: Oct 28^th, 2011	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #66 - Aug 12^th, 2021 at 2:30pm	Print Post
	The picture of the "Kulls Bisley" does NOT have the correct "Bisley Model" fore-end, which has balancing weights in a tube, and is shaped for a finger-groove. IF it has the "Stevens Bisley Model" marking on the action body then the fore-end has been replaced. My reasoning is that they probably made about 50 using old (Greener sourced?) Mk IV .577/.450 actions with the specialisted STEVENS barrel and fore-end. My rifle is #48, which was in the NRA (UK) Museum at Bisley for 20 years until recently.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #67 - Aug 14^th, 2021 at 12:33am	Print Post
	Please enlighten me on the balancing weights in the tube in the forearm? I don't recall having come across this in all my research. I'm happy to get info on another example. I wonder where the they came up with the number of 50 guns being made for NRA competition and the weighted forearm. I always welcome any additional info on these guns. Since these were built as target rifles and target shooters are notorious for modifying guns to make them shoot better it's sometimes difficult to determine what is factory and what was done after the fact. The fact that these were built so long ago doesn't help. Thanks again for the input.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3758 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #68 - Aug 14^th, 2021 at 12:42am	Print Post
	Perhaps the NRA of Great Britain and the NRA of the US had different ideas/rules about target rifles. Since these Bisleys were made to conform to Great Britains's NRA standards, the weighted forearms could have been a standard feature.


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Jim Hallam (UK) Newbie Offline Posts: 7 Location: Bisley, U.K. Joined: Oct 28^th, 2011	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #69 - Aug 14^th, 2021 at 5:26am	Print Post
	Hi all When I get time (IF?) I will follow this up -- - there are SO many British target-shooters not renewing their licences as many have not been able to go to their INDOOR range due to Covid restrictions --- so they ask me to take their bundhooks in ;-( I am working towards retirement, thinning out my personal collection and my "stock", which includes over 50 Martinis -- - mainly BSAs from a #6 through to LH ISU's, Greeners and 1 Vickers. I used to send some to the USA but that is really difficult now. To be honest, I have never plucked up courage to remove the "cap" at the front of the fore-end on the "Bisley Model" -- but logically it can ONLY be for balance weights. I saw that one was sold 12 (?) years ago for over a grand --- any ideea what one might fetch now? As far as 50 guns, it was a logical deduction seeing as mine is #48 and I made the assumption that the British Trade (Stevens' London Agency) would have sourced the special barrels from the USA and had a batch made up - probably in Birmingham. ATB to singleshot fans, Jim H.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #70 - Aug 15^th, 2021 at 9:31pm	Print Post
	I paid $1,000 or $1,100 for mine several years back. Could be more or less today. Mine has a brass threaded cap on the forearm with a space behind it for spare inserts for the front sight. No indication of weights or any place for them.


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1650 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #71 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 4:20am	Print Post
	That's the ubiquitous front sight element holder, to be found on most Brit rifles...


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Grumpy gumpy Full Member Offline Posts: 214 Location: australia Joined: Jul 6^th, 2016	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #72 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 4:21am	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 4:20am: That's the ubiquitous front sight element holder, to be found on most Brit rifles... Not jut British, any of the "colonies " Gumpy


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Jim Hallam (UK) Newbie Offline Posts: 7 Location: Bisley, U.K. Joined: Oct 28^th, 2011	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #73 - Aug 17^th, 2021 at 4:36am	Print Post
	Hi Yesterday I disassembled the rifle and I DID remove the "cap" on the front of the fore-end and was embarassed to discover that it was NOT a "cap" but was like a heavy duty "drawing pin" (thumb tack?) and there was NO tube behind it. So much for my logical (?) assumption years ago about balance weights ;-( When I get time (**) I will take some photos of the marks. The "cap" has a stamped crown over SO. The serial # stamped on the lower front of the action IS #4 on the LHS and #8 on the RHS. There are two other numbers elesewhere --- 12 and 4. From where thay are it is clear that they are "setter-up" numbers. The barrel is definitely Stevens USA and is NOT "Parker-rifled". Conculsion? Stevens UK brought in the target grade barrels, sourced the action and had the batch of rifles assembled here (almost certainly in Birmingham). I am scanning the adverts from the NRA (UK) Journal started in 1910 but need to compress them before they can be attached. The FIRST advert (Aug and Sept 1910) shows the "English Model" no 044 1/2. In the Oct. 1910 issue Stevens announce the "Bisley Model" (no picture) Back to the "Ideal" in Nov/Dec and the FIRST ilustarion of the "Bisley Model" is in Jan 1911 -- which clearly shows that the FIRST "Bisley Model" had a sporting type fore-end with a horn cap. repeated in Feb / Mar but the Apr 1911 issue shows the No 700 with Stevens-Pope barrel and shotgun butt. The No.700 is promoted in Jan/Feb 1912 but then Stevens adverts disappear. Clearly later "Bisleys" were stocked with the finger-grip fore-end, obviously to attract the serious* "miniature rifleman". More to come as and when ... ... ... *** Things are getting frenetic after the Plymouth shootings. The Police are under pressure -- they were wrong in returning the shotgun to the killer but are justifying this on the basis that they had no lawful authority to trawl the internet. Once again, the law-abiding firearm holders will take the brunt of the politicians grandstanding and the Home Office (our State Department) changing the "guidance to Police". As the song says .... "Life gits teejus, don't it?"


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2797 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) Reply #74 - Aug 17^th, 2021 at 1:30pm	Print Post
	That Stevens UK "sourced" the actions when testing the UK market for a Stevens product makes perfect sense. Maybe that's all there was to it. Is there any way to tell who made the actions? Dimensions, something like that?


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