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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stevens Bisley Model (martini action) (Read 43081 times)
38_Cal
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #60 - Sep 29th, 2009 at 11:08pm
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From the profile of the Kul's rifle and the photos of Slumlord's rifle, they appear to use the same buttplate.  If his rifle has an off the shelf stock from another rifle, the odds that the Stevens plate would fit are slim to none.  Sight unseen, whoever stocked this rifle took the time to fit the original buttplate...I think.  Could it be a special order rifle, with the position style wood and the heavy round barrel?  But...why go to Stevens when you had the services of AGParker, Greener, Bonehill, etc., available?  All known and respected when it came to building .22 competition rifles in England.  It's a puzzlement!   

David Kaiser
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David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #61 - Sep 30th, 2009 at 12:42am
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Indeed it is a fascinating puzzle! I have pulled the butplate and there are very old chisel marks under the butplate that indicate hand fitting to me. It fits the stock very well. Hard to tell who did what. I need to pull the stock from the gun and see what I find. Stevens sometimes numbered their stocks to the gun but definately not always. I have an early Favorite apart on my bench that has the stock numbered to the gun. Kull's gave my contact info the the guy that bought their gun. He has contacted me and I just emailed him asking for any information that he may have. Having fun researching this. Still wish the gun could talk. All the scenerios presented are possible.
I pulled the stock. No numbers on it or the forearm.
« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2009 at 1:26am by slumlord44 »  
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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #62 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 1:03am
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I  got an email from the owner of the Kull's Bisley. The butplate on his is definitely the same as the one on mine. According to Steve, the Stevens London Catalog refered to the butplate as "engine turned". One more piece of the puzzle answered. This leads me to believe that the stock on mine may be factory. I said MAY be. The stock shows chisel marks under the butplate where it was fitted, but there is no way to tell if the factory did it or somone after the fact. I have thanked Ken before for giving me the chance to buy this fascinating piece of history, but would like to thank him agin here publicly. Thank you Ken.
« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2009 at 1:18am by slumlord44 »  
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waterman
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #63 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 11:38am
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Will the guy who bought the Bisley from Kull's share the serial number with us?  Or offer us a hint?  Like it's in the 50s or "a single digit" or somewhere around 750?  I'm just curious about how many are out there and what is the range of serial numbers.

waterman

  
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DoubleD
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #64 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 12:26pm
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slumlord44 wrote on Oct 5th, 2009 at 1:03am:
I  got an email from the owner of the Kull's Bisley. The butplate on his is definitely the same as the one on mine. According to Steve, the Stevens London Catalog refered to the butplate as "engine turned". One more piece of the puzzle answered. This leads me to believe that the stock on mine may be factory. I said MAY be. The stock shows chisel marks under the butplate where it was fitted, but there is no way to tell if the factory did it or somone after the fact. I have thanked Ken before for giving me the chance to buy this fascinating piece of history, but would like to thank him agin here publicly. Thank you Ken.


Final fitting and chisel marks are not uncommon, I see this on the Factory Martini's all the time. Lok in side the gun and you will se file marks from the final fitting of the metal parts.  Standard practice back then.

  

Douglas, Ret.
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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #65 - Oct 23rd, 2009 at 8:41pm
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A little additional info on the Kull Bisley. The serial # is a low single didget number. Serial #'s on the guns in Grants books are two didget #s. My Bisley has a three didget serial #. This would indicate a larger production run than the 10 guns that Grant sugested in his book. BUT, as anyone familiar with Stevens knows, Stevens sometimes had no logical sequence with serial numbers. 
The Kull rifle also has the chisel marks under the butplate. The cocking indicator on it is a sloted screw with an arrow engraved on the frame. Mine has the large cocking indicator that is commonly seen on Martini's.
The 1911 Stevens Catalog #53 lists the Number 600 Martini, which is the Bisley, in the price list.
This information is from the current owner of the Kull Bisley. He is an avid Stevens collector. I expressed an interest in buying it if he ever decided to part with it. Wish I could find another Bisley owner out there to compare notes with.
  
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Jim Hallam (UK)
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #66 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 2:30pm
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The picture of the "Kulls Bisley" does NOT have the correct "Bisley Model" fore-end, which has balancing weights in a tube, and is shaped for a finger-groove.  IF it has the "Stevens Bisley Model" marking on the action body then the fore-end has been replaced.

My reasoning is that they probably made about 50 using old (Greener  sourced?) Mk IV .577/.450 actions with the specialisted STEVENS barrel and fore-end.  My rifle is #48, which was in the NRA (UK) Museum at Bisley for 20 years until recently.
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #67 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 12:33am
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Please enlighten me on the balancing weights in the tube in the forearm? I don't recall having come across this in all my research. I'm happy to get info on another example. I wonder where the they came up with the number of 50 guns being made for NRA competition and the weighted forearm. I always welcome any additional info on these guns. Since these were built as target rifles and target shooters are notorious for modifying guns to make them shoot better it's sometimes difficult to determine what is factory and what was done after the fact. The fact that these were built so long  ago doesn't help. Thanks again for the input.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #68 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 12:42am
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Perhaps the NRA of Great Britain and the NRA of the US had different ideas/rules about target rifles. Since these Bisleys were made to conform to Great Britains's NRA standards, the weighted forearms could have been a standard feature.
  
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Jim Hallam (UK)
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #69 - Aug 14th, 2021 at 5:26am
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Hi all
When I get time (IF?) I will follow this up -- - there are SO many British target-shooters not renewing their licences as many have not been able to go to their INDOOR range due to Covid restrictions ---  so they ask me to take their bundhooks in ;-(
I am working towards retirement, thinning out my personal collection and my "stock", which includes over 50 Martinis -- - mainly BSAs from a #6 through to LH ISU's,  Greeners and 1 Vickers.  I used to send some to the USA but that is really difficult now.

To be honest, I have never plucked up courage to remove the "cap" at the front of the fore-end on the "Bisley Model" -- but logically it can ONLY be for balance weights.

I saw that one was sold 12 (?) years ago for over a grand --- any ideea what one might fetch now?

As  far as 50 guns, it was a logical deduction seeing as mine is #48 and I made the assumption that the British Trade  (Stevens' London Agency) would have sourced the special barrels from the USA and had a batch made up - probably in Birmingham.

ATB to singleshot fans,
Jim H.
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #70 - Aug 15th, 2021 at 9:31pm
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I paid $1,000 or $1,100 for mine several years back. Could be more or less today. Mine has a brass threaded cap on the forearm with a space behind it for spare inserts for the front sight. No indication of weights or any place for them.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #71 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:20am
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That's the ubiquitous front sight element holder, to be found on most Brit rifles...
  
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Grumpy gumpy
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #72 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:21am
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MartiniBelgian wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:20am:
That's the ubiquitous front sight element holder, to be found on most Brit rifles...


Not jut British, any of the "colonies "
Gumpy
  
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Jim Hallam (UK)
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #73 - Aug 17th, 2021 at 4:36am
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Hi
Yesterday I disassembled the rifle and I DID remove the "cap" on the front of the fore-end and was embarassed to discover that it was NOT a "cap" but was like a heavy duty "drawing pin" (thumb tack?) and there was NO tube behind it.  So much for my logical (?) assumption years ago about balance weights  ;-(   

When I get time (***) I will take some photos of the marks.  The "cap" has a stamped crown over SO.  The serial # stamped on the lower front of the action IS #4 on the LHS and #8 on the RHS.
There are two other numbers elesewhere --- 12   and   4. From where thay are it is clear that they are "setter-up" numbers.  The barrel is definitely Stevens USA and is NOT "Parker-rifled".
Conculsion?  Stevens UK brought in the target grade barrels, sourced the action and had the batch of rifles assembled here (almost certainly in Birmingham). 

I am scanning the adverts from the NRA (UK) Journal started in 1910 but need to compress them before they can be attached.  The FIRST advert (Aug and Sept 1910) shows the "English Model" no 044 1/2.  In the Oct. 1910 issue Stevens announce the "Bisley Model" (no picture) Back to the "Ideal" in Nov/Dec and the FIRST ilustarion of the "Bisley Model" is in Jan 1911 --  which clearly shows that the FIRST "Bisley Model" had a sporting type fore-end with a horn cap.  repeated in Feb / Mar but the Apr 1911 issue shows the No 700 with Stevens-Pope barrel and shotgun butt.
The No.700 is promoted in Jan/Feb 1912 but then Stevens adverts disappear.

Clearly later "Bisleys" were stocked with the finger-grip fore-end, obviously to attract the serious "miniature rifleman".

More to come as and when ... ... ...

*** Things are getting frenetic after the Plymouth shootings.  The Police are under pressure -- they were wrong in returning the shotgun to the killer but are justifying this on the basis that they had no lawful authority to trawl the internet.  Once again, the law-abiding firearm holders will take the brunt of the politicians grandstanding and the Home Office (our State Department) changing the "guidance to Police".

As the song says .... "Life gits teejus, don't it?"
  
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Re: Stevens Bisley Model (martini action)
Reply #74 - Aug 17th, 2021 at 1:30pm
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That Stevens UK "sourced" the actions when testing the UK market for a Stevens product makes perfect sense.  Maybe that's all there was to it.  Is there any way to tell who made the actions?  Dimensions, something like that?
  
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