My Shiloh Sharps 45-70 rifle will arrive this summer. And I’ve been in the process of putting together all my reloading material together.  I’ve decided to go with IMR for my smokeless powder. I have already bought IMR 3031, 4198, and the 4064. I have bough my bullets yet. And I’m also going to load black powder loads later. I need some advice from the experts on the best bullets to buy. On what are the best Blackpowder to load with. And I’d really like to hear any and all the advice from those of you that have a Sharps 45-70 rifle. I reload my own ammo for my 30-06 and 30-30, as well as shot loads for my 12 gauge. I’m in no way an expert with loading for black powder. I have Hornady’s current Progressive loader and it’s great. I have the dies for the 45-70.I do not know what Blackpowder to load with. In addition, where can I find load data for Blackpowder?  I’ve bought the Blackpowder powder measurer for my loader. I’ve bought Lyman’s latest reload book, and it is very good. I’ve done allot of research yet more information from those of you out that have the advice that books cannot give is what I need now. My Dad which will be 77 this June is eagerly giving me all the advice that he can, and well he’s like a little just as I am about the 45-70. I took him with me when I went to Big Timber to custom order it in person. So I’m sure that you can see that I’m really into my 45-70. I was told by Sharps that I should not load for the gun until I have it with me, so that I can check my first rounds loaded to make sure that they are sized correctly for the rifle chamber. I would like to hear from those that have a 45-70 on what you have learned that I should be aware of. I’m looking forward to hear from all of you. 

Thanks Pete, this will help get me started in the right direction if I'm not going in that direction already. Yes, I'm sure that you have given me the short version, and I'm grateful for that. I've been on the Buffalo Arms site many times. Thanks also for the info on the Lyman Bullet. I'm learning that loading for Blackpower is allot dirrent then what I've been loading for in the past. My first loading will be with the Smokeless Cartridges first. I want to get a good feel for the gun before  I start reloading Blackpowder Cartidges. Thanks once more for your advice. If I may ask what big bore rifle do you load for and shoot.

Sharps1874,

  Smokeless is a good place to start. About the only advice I'd really give you there is be very careful when loading it. Depending on powder & charges, and what you're trying to achieve, it's not to hard to double charge.

  I shoot many different calibers with BP, from the .22 WCF on up to a .50/90/600. Have owned, and shot, three different .45/70, and am currently playing with a .45/70 in a double rifle.

  Keep us informed as you go along, and be sure to ask plenty of questions if you run into something that's not familiar.

PETE

Hello Tim, Pete, and Forrest,

                       Tim, I have not loading any Speer bullets in years. All of my 30-06 and 30-30 loads are Nosler ballistic tips. I am getting ready to also start reloading for my S&W Model 19 Magnum in both the 38 special and the 357. I have not decided on whom I want to go with for my bullets. I already have the brass. I am not committed to Nosler for the 45-70 and I’m open to hear from everyone what they think is the best bullet for cartridge and for Blackpowder, and why. I take it that your smokeless is IMR. I also like IMR for those loads and that is what I have for my other loads. How was the 5744? I emailed GOEX last night and one of there people emailed me back that he would give me a call this afternoon and go over what they have. BP is all new to me and I don’t want to make any mistakes with it. 

                       Pete, I thought that if I started with a Smokeless load first that it would give me a chance to get to know my rifle better. If I were to really give the idea of Competing with it a run for it’s money, then I have to definitely load BP. I do plan on loading BP no matter what, I just wish to learn all that I can be do the best that I can with it, and feel comfortable loading BP. I grew up loading Smokeless and I’m very careful with it. It’s BP that I have the concern with. I have the BP Powder Measure that goes with my Hornady Progressive Loader. I know that for my 45-70 Replica that I need to stay under 1800 fps with my loads. I’m looking at loading in the 1500 to 1600 fps range to start out with. I’ve never shot a 45-70, this will be my first. Your 50/90/600 must have one heck of a kick. 

                       Forrest, I do not have any plans at this time to cast my own bullets. And no I do not have any experience casting bullets. If I did that would have to be much later. I’ve put allot of money already into getting back to reloading since last December. It’s been very expensive yet I know that all of this will pay off later. I never thought of using cast bullets in my 30-30 or 30-06. Some time next month, I’ll have all of my 30-06 and 30-30 brass ready for reloading. I guess I could reload some of each with cast bullets to compare with my Nosler bullets. I do understand what you’re getting at in getting use to cast bullets before the Sharps arrives. Should I try the cast on my handgun as well? The S&W 357 model is a revolver. 

                       I emailed load Data about BP reloading Data. They told what issues of the Rifle and handloader had articles on BP and reloading. I called them this morning and was able to get 4 out of the 5 that was recommended. One of the issues is now out of circulation. They have been very good. They even found some load data for my dads 30 Newton. I just wish they had some load data for just the Sharps 45-70. They sure have expanded the load data for the 45-70 over the last few months. I’ve been emailing them requesting the data back when they did not have much on the 45-70. You can bet that I’ll be staying more in touch when I can and yes I’ll let you all know how the 45-70 goes once I get it and take it to the range. Thanks for everyone’s help.

Sharps 1874,

My best groups, a non-BP trip to the range, last night came with the 405g Speer swaged bullets and 5744 powder.  I was using 29g of 5744 and the 405g Speer bullets at 100 yards.  My maximum group, three shots each, was 1". all groups had two bullet holes touching and the best group was 5/8".  I do mostly hunting (or preparing for hunting), so I feel any more than three shot groups don't mean much to me.  If you want to talk to the Goex Consultant, his name is Bill Bagwell, 903-938-0905.  He said not to use the 405g Speer swaged with BP due to the coating on them.  Tim K

Hello Craig,

           Thanks for the advice. I’m sure you can understand that I just do not wish to make any mistakes that I’ll regret later from my reloading, and the maintenance of my Sharps. They are not cheap yet they are as far as I feel very well made rifles, but then again I’ll find out for sure later. BP has other things that Smokeless does not have to worry about, and I just want to make sure that I learn what I need to in order to make this safe and still enjoyable. Tim K recommended that I talk to Bill Bagwell from GOEX, what a small world we live in. That was the person from GOEX that had replied to my email that I had sent them. Last Friday Morning he and I must have talk for about 2 hours on the phone. I enjoyed our conversation. He has an immense amount of knowledge. I learned allot from him, just as I’ve been learning from all of you. 

  If you are going to any amount of shooting I would get an extra extractor, firing pin tip, firing pin transfer block, and a lever spring. I have broken four or five of each. Joe S

Sharps1874,

  Yeah.... But if you become famous the rifle will be worth a lot more when your heirs sell it! 

PETE

Hello Everyone,

           Good news, I spoke with Shiloh Sharps and I should receive my 45-70 mid to late August. Yes the little kid inside of me is very excited. Hey my Dads 78 and he’s just as excited about it as I am.

Bad_Ass_Wallace,

                 This is the first that I have heard about not shooting 500 grain bullets. Thanks for passing this information on to me, I do appreciate it. I heard from Lucinda and she says that it should be about another 6 weeks fro the Rifle to be finished. I’ll take a look at the links that you sent next weekend just way to busy to do much other then 2 funerals in 3 days. All my reloading and shooting has come to a halt until next week. Yet be assured I’ll check out the links next week, you can bet on that. 

                 I’ve been in contact with Lucinda about reloading. Yes, others have suggested contacting Kirk as well, and I will. With your help and advice as well as everyone else’s, I’ve become more educated and knowledgeable, so hopefully I will not do anything stupid with my Sharps…hopefully not really bad. Thanks for the info and have a great weekend out in Australia.

Thanks FA,
Yes I was referring to "jacketed", however even plain based cast bullets have a limitation on how fast you can drive them before leading or even stripping in the rifling occurrs.
Most of my cast are 1:25 and 1:30 for all loads as fine accuracy comes from using bulets 0.001 oversized in the 40/45cal and 0.002 for both 50's. Very hard leads just don't work as well as softer alloys at reasonable velocity in the Sharps rifles.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Left to Right; 22 Hornet, 50/90, 50/70, 45/70, 40/65, 577/450 & 30/30

hi ho 1874,

like tim k, i also like 5744. have three shilo's in 45-70. for me the bullets of about 405-425 grs work best at velocities of 1150 to 1300fps. they are (for me) more consistant in accuracy. bullets above 500 grs are a little too long for the shilo twist. they are accurate, but, not as consistant at those velocities.

have shot the short bullets at 700 yrd matches and have done very well. when it comes to twist, length is more important than weight.

..ttfn grampa..

B_A_ Wallace;
Please refer to the aforementioned Shiloh Forum for Kirk Bryan's thoughts regarding his rifles, smokeless powder and pressures.

Quote:


Don,
Yes Kirk does say that it Shiloh will handle smokeless, however I have also seen the results within the last 15 months of "chamber ringing" from such practice. One was an IAB and the other a Shiloh. 

In the first case, the inexperienced reloader had 35gn of fast burning powder, a card wad over powder, then a big air pocket behind a 530gn cast bullet. The second was a 50/140, I have some once fired cases that were sticky in the chamber. The solid head had expanded to such a degree that even cut back to 50/70 length and F/L sized, they would still not chanber in another rifle. The ring in this case was in the chamber at the solid head.

This is not to say that smokeless loads won't work, but the practice is full of danger for the inexperienced reloader.

If you folks would read Charlie Dell's book "The Modern Schuetzen" the REAL reason is clearly explained. In fact, he has a whole chapter on the phenomenon. He was able to produce chamber ringing at will (the only modern person that I have read about that is/was able to do that). His work verified a Frenchman's work of over a hundred years ago (I believe his name was Viele?).

I suggest anyone who has even a remote interest in reloading smokeless in large cases (this means practically all black powder cases) read his chapter on this matter. Once you understand the forces at work, it is EASY to avoid problems with it. Many thousands of people, everyday, load smokeless in large cases without a hint of a problem. You just have to do it correctly.

Now, all of that said, my BPCRifles are shot ONLY with black powder. Why? Because that is what they are designed to do. I shoot LOTS of smokeless but not in my BPCRifles. It is not because it is unsafe, but my reason for owning and shooting these is to experience the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle with the original loads, etc.

It seems to me that using a BPCR with smokeless is a little like putting gasoline in a horse (for those that aren't "in the know" horses prefer oats and water ).

Now, just to keep the record straight, I regularly shoot smokeless in my 32/40, .45 Colts, and .38 Specials... 

FWIW
Dale53

Hey,

     How good are the Rugers (1 & 3) compared to the other Breechloading rifles?

  I have shot thousands of 45-70s with smokeless (well over 20,000) and that includes 400 and 500 gr bullets. I can be done, but I think the point that is being made is that the rifle was never designed to  compete with the 405 magnums.
  The powders that are commonly recommended for smokeless are IMR 4759 and Accurate Arms 5744.  Loading data is well established for those powders in all bullet weights. I have recently started using a 1/4 sheet of toilet paper wad with a cardboad wad directly under the bullet. I have had no problems so far but I am conderned about ringing the chamber, so I will be experimenting to see if I can get the same results without the toilet paper. 
  I just started shooting black powder in the 45-70 this year, and so far its not nearly as much fun as smokeless, unless you have lots of time on your hands which I do not have. 

   For those who say the Sharps was designed for black powder, they are correct to a point but that doesnt mean smokeless cannot be safely used. If you keep the velocities and poder charges at a reasonable level you should be OK. Good luck, Joe S

What Forrest said.

I also have shot many thousands of smokeless rounds through these old rifles and my favorite 45-70 load is the Lyman/Ideal 457125 Gov't bullet at up to 1700 fps. (but NOT in my trapdoor!) It casts out at around 515 grains depending upon alloy, out of my 1940's vintage mould. No damage to any part of any of my rifles in close to 40 yrs. These old 45-70 rifles were DESIGNED for this heavy bullet.

Without getting into any long-winded specifics, during the process of any sane & orderly work-up of 45-cal heavy-bullet loads the ever-increasing recoil will cause your shoulder to give out long before the smokeless loads or heavy bullets will hurt the rifle. That is, in any Sharps or high wall it will. Trapdoors & Ballards are much weaker however & should not be fired with any load over 20-25,000 psi IMO.
Good luck, Joe

Hello Again,

           It’s been a while since I last posted here. Allot has happened. I found some really great guys that shoot about an hour from me, and they put on a monthly 200 yard competition that I have been invited to shoot at and It’s been great shooting with them. We have both 40-65 and 45-70’s being shot there. I started shooting with them last November. One of the guys has been casting bullets for some 40 years. Last week I had my all day training with him on how to cast bullets. Last Tuesday I received my RCBS Furnace and the remainder of what I need to cast bullets with, to include my Lubri-Sizer. I already have my first bullet mould. I’m already looking to buy my second and third moulds. I already know what they will be. I’ve got the fever. In Sacramento (CA) they have a monthly BPCR Silhouette shoot. I’ve been there 3 times now, just learning before I start doing it myself. Getting to know the guys there and to learn what I can from them. What a rust the last 4 months have been. Wish I had been doing this a long time ago. Now I know what I have been missing, and what all of you have been enjoying for all these years.