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45-70 1874 Sharps (Read 27664 times)

Sharps1874 Ex Member	45-70 1874 Sharps Mar 30^th, 2005 at 12:03am	Print Post
	My Shiloh Sharps 45-70 rifle will arrive this summer. And I’ve been in the process of putting together all my reloading material together. I’ve decided to go with IMR for my smokeless powder. I have already bought IMR 3031, 4198, and the 4064. I have bough my bullets yet. And I’m also going to load black powder loads later. I need some advice from the experts on the best bullets to buy. On what are the best Blackpowder to load with. And I’d really like to hear any and all the advice from those of you that have a Sharps 45-70 rifle. I reload my own ammo for my 30-06 and 30-30, as well as shot loads for my 12 gauge. I’m in no way an expert with loading for black powder. I have Hornady’s current Progressive loader and it’s great. I have the dies for the 45-70.I do not know what Blackpowder to load with. In addition, where can I find load data for Blackpowder? I’ve bought the Blackpowder powder measurer for my loader. I’ve bought Lyman’s latest reload book, and it is very good. I’ve done allot of research yet more information from those of you out that have the advice that books cannot give is what I need now. My Dad which will be 77 this June is eagerly giving me all the advice that he can, and well he’s like a little just as I am about the 45-70. I took him with me when I went to Big Timber to custom order it in person. So I’m sure that you can see that I’m really into my 45-70. I was told by Sharps that I should not load for the gun until I have it with me, so that I can check my first rounds loaded to make sure that they are sized correctly for the rifle chamber. I would like to hear from those that have a 45-70 on what you have learned that I should be aware of. I’m looking forward to hear from all of you.
	« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 12:24pm by »

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PETE Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #1 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 12:57am	Print Post
	Sharps1874, It would take a book to cover everything you want to know real well, but here goes with some info. The smokeless powders you have will work well. Especially the 3031 and 4198. I used quite a bit of both. A good bullet would be the Lyman 457125. A lot of people think there are better, but it will more than do to start. It sounds like you want to buy your bullets so I imagine just about any commercial caster will have this bullet. The best black powder would be Swiss in either 1, 1 1/2, or 2F. It's also the most expensive. A good handbook to get for loading black would be Steve Garbe's and Mike Venterino's "Reloading Primer". If you're not aquainted with Buffalo Arms Co. check out their web site at: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links); It's a candy store for black powder shooters and will have the book mentioned above, plus everything else you can imagine you'll need. Shiloh was right in suggesting you not load for the gun till you get it. Altho bore dim.'s for the .45/70 are pretty well standardized in modern guns, slight variations can be found. You'll want to slug the bore so that you can size, or have sized, your bullets from .001" to .0015" over groove diam., and of course set your seating dies for proper OAL in your chamber. You'll have to experiment with the OAL as some have found their guns work best with the bullet tight into the rifling, and others like it a few thousandths off. Loading a black powder cartridge is pretty simple. Once you've decided what your OAL is with at least a .030" wad of some kind under it, all you need to do is fill the rest of the case so the powder just touches the wad. This will be zero compression. After that you just keep adding a gr. or two of the powder you want to try out until you reach the best accuracy. You will need a compression die (available from BA) to get the necessary compression as you increase the load. You don't want to compress the charge with the bullet. What's listed above is a very general way of working with the .45/70, and like any other caliber there are all kinds of tricks you can do to get the most out of it. Garbe & Venterino's book will give you everything you need to know, even if it's becoming a little dated, it will get you started in good fashion. If you've got any specific question don't hesitate to ask as there are a lot of people on here that can help you out. PETE


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Sharps1874 Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #2 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 1:10am	Print Post
	Thanks Pete, this will help get me started in the right direction if I'm not going in that direction already. Yes, I'm sure that you have given me the short version, and I'm grateful for that. I've been on the Buffalo Arms site many times. Thanks also for the info on the Lyman Bullet. I'm learning that loading for Blackpower is allot dirrent then what I've been loading for in the past. My first loading will be with the Smokeless Cartridges first. I want to get a good feel for the gun before I start reloading Blackpowder Cartidges. Thanks once more for your advice. If I may ask what big bore rifle do you load for and shoot.


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TimK Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #3 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 7:41am	Print Post
	I am rather new to my S. Sharps, but I have shot a H&R Buffalo Classic for a few years, both in 45/70. My favorite bullets are the 400g Speer flat nose and the 405g Speer Idaho Territory for smokeless powder. I've found 4198 (32 grains) to work best for me, but I'm trying some 5744 after work today. You can't use the 405g Speer with BP, or so I was told by the Goex rep. So far with BP, a 520g semispitzer from Buffalo arms, 535g Lyman Postell and 445g Brooks HP from Classic Bullets all work good with Goex Cartridge and 0.060" wads. The Reloading Primer by M.V. & S.G. is excellent. The biggest problem with BP shooting is not cleaning the gun, but cleaning the cases. It's not a real problem, just time consuming. I'm not into the BP that deep yet, but I could try to answer any specific questions, as others here at work are more experienced BP cartridge shooters. Drop me a note here at work, tkwiecinski@stanadyne.com , and I'll see if I can help. Tim K


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PETE Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #4 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 8:06am	Print Post
	Sharps1874, Smokeless is a good place to start. About the only advice I'd really give you there is be very careful when loading it. Depending on powder & charges, and what you're trying to achieve, it's not to hard to double charge. I shoot many different calibers with BP, from the .22 WCF on up to a .50/90/600. Have owned, and shot, three different .45/70, and am currently playing with a .45/70 in a double rifle. Keep us informed as you go along, and be sure to ask plenty of questions if you run into something that's not familiar. PETE


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FAsmus Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #5 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 1:04pm	Print Post
	My Shiloh Sharps 45-70 rifle will arrive this summer. And I’ve been in the process of putting together all my reloading material together. Sharps1874, The other members have given you good information for starting out. I did not see you mention that you had any expierience at casting bullets at all. Is this so? If it is indeed the case you should consider working with cast bullets in your currently available rifles before the arrival of the 45/70. The samller calibers are most definitely easier to learn some of the basic things about making up your own bullets and loading them in conventional rifles. Let us know about this semi-critical aspect of loading and shooting the 45/70.. Good morning, Forrest


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Sharps1874 Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #6 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 4:09pm	Print Post
	Hello Tim, Pete, and Forrest, Tim, I have not loading any Speer bullets in years. All of my 30-06 and 30-30 loads are Nosler ballistic tips. I am getting ready to also start reloading for my S&W Model 19 Magnum in both the 38 special and the 357. I have not decided on whom I want to go with for my bullets. I already have the brass. I am not committed to Nosler for the 45-70 and I’m open to hear from everyone what they think is the best bullet for cartridge and for Blackpowder, and why. I take it that your smokeless is IMR. I also like IMR for those loads and that is what I have for my other loads. How was the 5744? I emailed GOEX last night and one of there people emailed me back that he would give me a call this afternoon and go over what they have. BP is all new to me and I don’t want to make any mistakes with it. Pete, I thought that if I started with a Smokeless load first that it would give me a chance to get to know my rifle better. If I were to really give the idea of Competing with it a run for it’s money, then I have to definitely load BP. I do plan on loading BP no matter what, I just wish to learn all that I can be do the best that I can with it, and feel comfortable loading BP. I grew up loading Smokeless and I’m very careful with it. It’s BP that I have the concern with. I have the BP Powder Measure that goes with my Hornady Progressive Loader. I know that for my 45-70 Replica that I need to stay under 1800 fps with my loads. I’m looking at loading in the 1500 to 1600 fps range to start out with. I’ve never shot a 45-70, this will be my first. Your 50/90/600 must have one heck of a kick. Forrest, I do not have any plans at this time to cast my own bullets. And no I do not have any experience casting bullets. If I did that would have to be much later. I’ve put allot of money already into getting back to reloading since last December. It’s been very expensive yet I know that all of this will pay off later. I never thought of using cast bullets in my 30-30 or 30-06. Some time next month, I’ll have all of my 30-06 and 30-30 brass ready for reloading. I guess I could reload some of each with cast bullets to compare with my Nosler bullets. I do understand what you’re getting at in getting use to cast bullets before the Sharps arrives. Should I try the cast on my handgun as well? The S&W 357 model is a revolver. I emailed load Data about BP reloading Data. They told what issues of the Rifle and handloader had articles on BP and reloading. I called them this morning and was able to get 4 out of the 5 that was recommended. One of the issues is now out of circulation. They have been very good. They even found some load data for my dads 30 Newton. I just wish they had some load data for just the Sharps 45-70. They sure have expanded the load data for the 45-70 over the last few months. I’ve been emailing them requesting the data back when they did not have much on the 45-70. You can bet that I’ll be staying more in touch when I can and yes I’ll let you all know how the 45-70 goes once I get it and take it to the range. Thanks for everyone’s help.


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PETE Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #7 - Mar 30^th, 2005 at 6:16pm	Print Post
	Sharps1874, First off you're never going to reach 1500 fps using BP, and that Lyman 457125 bullet I recommended, or any of the other bullets recommended. In fact it will be pretty good if you can reach 1800 fps with a 500 + gr. bullet and smokeless. It can be done and I've shot up as high as 2185 fps with the Lyman 330 gr. H.P. in the DR using smokeless, but not sure you want to go there with your Shiloh. With BP you will find that something on the order of 1150 to 1250 fps will give you the best accuracy. You won't have to worry about "overloading" with BP. Just can't be done. In fact to even duplicate original spec. M.V.'s you will have to compress the powder into an almost solid mass, just due to the differences in case capacities between our sollid head cases and the old balloon head ones. Altho the .45/70 should be shot with BP..... in my opinion.... I think your idea of starting with smokeless is good. Just be sure when selecting loads from the manuals that you pick the right table. As you've probably already seen most of the loading manuals give at least two, and sometimes three tables depending on strength of the action. On the .50/90...... It doesn't kick as much as some people think. My favorite story on it happened at the NCOWS Nats. one year. After the four day shoot I had about 11 rounds left over. One of the competitors.... a 14 yr. old boy that didn't weigh 130 pds. soaking wet....... wanted to shoot it. So I set him up on the sticks, and showed him how to hold and shoot it so it wouldn't break his arm. First shot he missed the shilouette because I think he thought it was gonna kill him. Next ten shots he hit steel every time. I was out of bullets but he asked if I had any more he could shoot. Was a lot of fun watching him shoot because after every three shots or so he had to hunch his little butt forward to get back on the sticks properly. I have shot as many as 75 rds. in one day. 50 at the LR match and 25 in 6.5 minutes in the Buffalo Match. It will wear you down, but doesn't cause any bruises. You don't have any trouble sleeping at nite tho. You'll find the same thing when shooting the .45/70 to a lesser degree. BP doesn't have the sharp rap smokeless does. More of a good solid push. PETE


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TimK Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #8 - Mar 31^st, 2005 at 8:28am	Print Post
	Sharps 1874, My best groups, a non-BP trip to the range, last night came with the 405g Speer swaged bullets and 5744 powder. I was using 29g of 5744 and the 405g Speer bullets at 100 yards. My maximum group, three shots each, was 1". all groups had two bullet holes touching and the best group was 5/8". I do mostly hunting (or preparing for hunting), so I feel any more than three shot groups don't mean much to me. If you want to talk to the Goex Consultant, his name is Bill Bagwell, 903-938-0905. He said not to use the 405g Speer swaged with BP due to the coating on them. Tim K


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FAsmus Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #9 - Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am	Print Post
	Forrest, I do not have any plans at this time to cast my own bullets. And no I do not have any experience casting bullets. If I did that would have to be much later. I’ve put allot of money already into getting back to reloading since last December. It’s been very expensive yet I know that all of this will pay off later. I never thought of using cast bullets in my 30-30 or 30-06. Some time next month, I’ll have all of my 30-06 and 30-30 brass ready for reloading. I guess I could reload some of each with cast bullets to compare with my Nosler bullets. I do understand what you’re getting at in getting use to cast bullets before the Sharps arrives. Should I try the cast on my handgun as well? The S&W 357 model is a revolver. Sharps1874, I thought that might be the case and sure, I understand the initial high cost of tools and equipment if you're gearing up for the whole works in a short time. Shooting jacketed bullets in a 1874 Sharps is an unusual idea. I know that 45 caliber jacketed bullets are fairly high priced items for one thing and there is no need to spend that kind of money on bullets that add no actual performance or accuracy to the shooting of a 45/70: I think it would be pretty safe to say that none of us big-bore shooters would consider buying and shooting jacketed in a 45. Some, who prefer ready-made bullets, buy the commercail cast bullets available these days. I have never tried these oferings but you should consider it since buying and learning how to use a full-blown casting outfit is an area that takes time and money to get things going and result in good accurate loads. The other rifles you own and shoot with jacketed remain of merit as training grounds for the coming times of 45/70 shooting. Shooting cast lead bullets is a different game and a good deal more demanding than buying and loading Noslers! (Also more rewarding) The 45/70 will shoot well but there are lessons to learn about shooting lead bullets that the old 30/30 will make clear to you much more easily, quickly and more cheaply (you can start now!) than when the Sharps arrives in a couple months. Good morning, Forrest PS Loading cast in your 357 is a good idea too but short guns, especially revolvers, are something of a separate game in themselves: They will teach you some basic stuff but there is no subsitute for the rifle work.


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Sharps1874 Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #10 - Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 12:05pm	Print Post
	Hello Craig, Thanks for the advice. I’m sure you can understand that I just do not wish to make any mistakes that I’ll regret later from my reloading, and the maintenance of my Sharps. They are not cheap yet they are as far as I feel very well made rifles, but then again I’ll find out for sure later. BP has other things that Smokeless does not have to worry about, and I just want to make sure that I learn what I need to in order to make this safe and still enjoyable. Tim K recommended that I talk to Bill Bagwell from GOEX, what a small world we live in. That was the person from GOEX that had replied to my email that I had sent them. Last Friday Morning he and I must have talk for about 2 hours on the phone. I enjoyed our conversation. He has an immense amount of knowledge. I learned allot from him, just as I’ve been learning from all of you.
	« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 12:23pm by »

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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2787 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #11 - Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 1:05pm	Print Post
	In the stuff I've read, I've seen the 1874 Sharps put in the Class 1 action group with the trapdoor & Ballard. Sometimes there are comments about metallurgy of the originals and sometimes comments about the side hammer & firing pin design. But in what category does a reproduction like this Shiloh Sharps belong? Richard


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Joe_S Oldtimer Offline Posts: 985 Joined: Jun 29^th, 2004	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #12 - Apr 4^th, 2005 at 8:38pm	Print Post
	If you are going to any amount of shooting I would get an extra extractor, firing pin tip, firing pin transfer block, and a lever spring. I have broken four or five of each. Joe S


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Sharps1874 Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #13 - May 22^nd, 2005 at 12:50pm	Print Post
	I’ve got some good news. My Rifle is in the process of being put together. Those of you that know any thing about Shiloh, they make everything there by hand, thus that’s why it takes longer to put the batch of rifles that they are producing at the time together. I’ve been staying in touch with Shiloh on the rifle. I did turn down having my initials put in gold on the rifle for over $500. It just seemed too much for that. And the initials would not improve the rifle.


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PETE Ex Member	Re: 45-70 1874 Sharps Reply #14 - May 22^nd, 2005 at 7:12pm	Print Post
	Sharps1874, Yeah.... But if you become famous the rifle will be worth a lot more when your heirs sell it! PETE


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