Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold? (Read 1366 times)
awp101
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 152
Location: DFW
Joined: Jan 31st, 2007
What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Jan 11th, 2024 at 9:35am
Print Post  
Kind of a clunky, imprecise title but I was struggling for a way to title this with just a few words.

Do you have a bright line regarding when or what to modify when working on a project rifle?  Obviously one wouldn’t (usually) consider modifying a rifle that was 95-100% original and correct.  Nor would one consider a patently unsafe modification such as converting a Favorite to something like .444 Marlin.

I’m more curious about situations such as numbers matching but rotten bore.  Do you reline back to original?  Reline/rebore to a caliber that was factory original for that rifle?  Or is it fair game for any caliber suitable for the action regardless of factory originality?
  

The Wheels of Justification grind slowly but inexorably
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 15771
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 10:21am
Print Post  
This can be a tough decision sometimes, and involves a lot of variables to make the decision. What's good for one gun, might not be good for another.
It's easy to look at a gun that's got horrible stocks, and a bad bore and say it is probably just good for a total restoration, or use the action to build another gun. But what if that gun has some special provenance? Then it might be a shame to do anything more than get it looking presentable, and not make it looked totally reworked, or reline it.
I've come across guns needing a barrel liner that were decent 60-70% condition overall, and a rebore or liner could make them a shooting rifle again. I think those guns with no special provenance deserve to be put back in service and they're not much good for anything but a wallhanger if they don't have a good bore.
I've also had some guns I bought with poor bores that I planned to have a liner installed, but after a thorough cleaning, and working up loads for, I found were actually pretty decent shooters, so they've never gotten a liner.
Some guns are easy to decide what to do or how much to do, while others I have to just set aside, and think about them before making a decision.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MrTipUp
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Quality is to a product
what character is to
a man

Posts: 1301
Location: Indiana
Joined: Feb 19th, 2020
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 2:09pm
Print Post  
Some decisions I find to be easy, like cleaning off active rust without disturbing the underlying finish/patina.  Or unbuggering screws and refinishing them as they were originally and to match the other screws and the amount of wear (if any) common use would have created.

Beyond that, like Vall, I have to think, sometimes long and hard, about the guns overall condition, rarity, and such provenance as can be proved.  And quite often I end up following one of my dad's (many) rules: "When in doubt, don't."

Bill Lawrence
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
awp101
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 152
Location: DFW
Joined: Jan 31st, 2007
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #3 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 6:39pm
Print Post  
Thanks for the thoughts so far.

I got to thinking about this after watching a .38 Long Ballard as a candidate for my .38 Special project.  Nothing made it collectable near as I could tell and the bore was listed as "good".   

I wondered what I would do if I ran across a donor rifle with a really good or even pristine bore?  .38 Long has long been unavailable (AFAIK) but should an otherwise shootable bore be reworked into something more common?

I didn't find any discussions here after doing an admittedly limited search (short on time at the time) but I figured this had the potential to be a topic that's either been discussed to death or the answer is obvious enough no one else has asked. Grin
  

The Wheels of Justification grind slowly but inexorably
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1427
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #4 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 7:30pm
Print Post  
In the case of a Ballard in .38 Long with a shootable barrel, it would be easy enough to flip the firing pin from rimfire to centerfire, trim .38 Special cases down, buy a heeled-bullet mould and go shooting.

That’s what I did with my Ballard in .32 Long, only in that case, I was able to scrounge up .32 Long Colt shells, moulds and reloading dies.  The rifle was in usable, but by no means pristine collectible shape, and it was much more interesting, and much less work, to shoot it in its original condition.

I found another Ballard in .38 Long, with bore and chamber hideously rusted, brown and pitted outside, the buttstock repaired in antiquity but by then with finish oxidized nearly black.  I had no qualms about converting this to centerfire, restocking and getting it relined to .32-20.  I even drilled and tapped the barrel and put a scope on it; one of the outside-adjustment types that look “period.”  Never lost any sleep about “originality” on that one; it shoots nicely with blackpowder loads.

A third Ballard was originally in .22 Long, was shot-out and sent to Stevens to be rebored and rechambered to .25 Stevens, and then was shot-out again.  I relined it back to .22 caliber and chambered it to .22 LR.  I tightened the linkage with new screws and pins but otherwise have left it alone.  The gun is a uniform brown patina with no pits, as is the original stock, and it says “Rebored and Rerifled by J. Stevens Arms Co” on the barrel.  A fun and interesting shooter.

If the .25 barrel had still been good, I’d have done some soul-searching about the reline, and might not have had the heart to do so.  But I was spared that crisis of the soul.  Another was a Stevens 44-1/2 barrel in .25-20 SS, in perfect shape inside except for bad pitting ahead of the chamber, probably from corrosive/erosive primers.  I did everything I could to get that to shoot, but nothing worked; not lapping, oversized bullets, nothing.  I sent it to Redman for a .25 caliber liner and chambered it to the original caliber.  But not without pains in my heart.

It shoots nicely now, so the pains have pretty much been forgotten.  The only way to have saved the original barrel (and I am usually at pains to save original Stevens barrels, as they were very well done and set many records) would have been to rechamber to a longer shell, like the .25-35, and that would have been an even worse compromise in originality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bpjack
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2493
Location: East Olympia, WA
Joined: May 18th, 2008
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #5 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 10:08pm
Print Post  
I am facing that dilemma right now with a 40-63 DST Ballard. All the metal is heavily freckled and the bore is poor for the first 1/3 but better towards the muzzle.  The stocks are fair.  Matching numbers. I am working a missfire issue and will reevaluate the accuracy before I decide on its fate.  I am contemplating just selling it.

Jack
  

ASSRA # 11318
Plethora?  You say I have a plethora?.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bpjack
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2493
Location: East Olympia, WA
Joined: May 18th, 2008
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #6 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 10:27pm
Print Post  
They are out of stock already.  They are a good company to be on their mailing list as they send out in stock notices regularly. 

  

ASSRA # 11318
Plethora?  You say I have a plethora?.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1303
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #7 - Jan 11th, 2024 at 11:04pm
Print Post  
Jack, that Ballard sounds like my kind of gun!

Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 15771
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #8 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 11:42am
Print Post  
The issue with a Ballard in .38 Long if using the original barrel is groove diameter. They are not a .357" or anything close, so you can use .38 Special brass, but as Bob mentioned you'll need to cast and load with a heeled bullet to fit the much larger groove diameter. Usually run around .375" groove.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1303
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #9 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 12:23pm
Print Post  
I’ve been working on the Ball and Williams Ballard in 38 long.  Talking with Steve I have some brass made up and bought some heeled bullets in .375 diameter.  Many measure under that.  Needless to say the targets have been unspectacular at around 6 inches at 25 yards.  I think the barrel is capable of better than this so I’m contemplating giving a go at cutting a mold a to .376 or .377 and see what happens.  Never cut a mold though, so it would be a new adventure!
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 15771
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 1:19pm
Print Post  
Might be easier to modify an existing mold to open up the diameter just above the heeled portion to the larger diameter you need? I've done this on occasion and just enough to seal the base band and got great accuracy.
Might also consider breech seating a larger non heeled bullet first to test and see if that makes groups tighten up before going through the work of modifying a mold. Could just build up a push seater from an old case for testing too.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bobw
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1303
Location: NW, Iowa
Joined: Mar 19th, 2013
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 6:28pm
Print Post  
Thanks Vall, I thought I would try cutting the mold out of aluminum just to make it easy, it would be a very low use mold if it worked.  I hadn’t thought about breech seating so might be a better option. 
Bob
  

Robert Warren
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
38_Cal
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2240
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Joined: Apr 27th, 2005
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 8:29pm
Print Post  
Wonder if an ideal or lee mold for the .36 caliber percussion revolvers might be a good candidate for this cartridge?
  

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
awp101
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 152
Location: DFW
Joined: Jan 31st, 2007
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #13 - Jan 12th, 2024 at 8:44pm
Print Post  
marlinguy wrote on Jan 12th, 2024 at 11:42am:
The issue with a Ballard in .38 Long if using the original barrel is groove diameter. They are not a .357" or anything close, so you can use .38 Special brass, but as Bob mentioned you'll need to cast and load with a heeled bullet to fit the much larger groove diameter. Usually run around .375" groove.

Casting is a non-starter for me so my plan (assuming anything other than a pristine bore) was to have it lined and chambered for .38 Special so the over size groove wouldn't have been an issue. 

Of course that also assumes there's enough meat in the barrel to do that which I just realized I don't know if there would be or not.

If the bore had been great (which the description did not suggest), I would have been in a bit of a pickle. Shocked
  

The Wheels of Justification grind slowly but inexorably
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 15771
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: What is your “modify/do not modify” threshold?
Reply #14 - Jan 15th, 2024 at 11:59am
Print Post  
If this is the typical Marlin Ballard #2 in .38 Long with octagon barrel I've never seen one that couldn't be large enough to accept a liner in .357"? Should be plenty of meat to allow it to be bored and lined.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint