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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) breech biock hole (Read 4460 times)
gwahir
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breech biock hole
Sep 11th, 2023 at 12:44pm
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If any one used the milling machine quill to cut a rectangular breech block hole, I would like to know the process!
  
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frnkeore
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #1 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 12:49pm
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Are you talking about a square cornered hole? If so, it can only be done by broaching or on a shaper.
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #2 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 12:55pm
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I have used an appropriate cutter in a lathe tool-holder as a shaper to cut certain slots.  I suppose you could do the same to make a square hole.   IOW, you run the lathe feed in and out to make the cuts, indexing the chuck appropriately.

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 2:37pm
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I have done 2 breech block mortices now.
I roughed them out by drilling, then extended end mills, then finished by making a filing jig with HSS pins to keep the file straight and limit how deep it would cut.
There is a book out there (can't think of the name ATM)on making your own falling block action c/w plans for a kind of shaper adapter for the quill of a B/P mill. I made one but found it difficult to use, then made my filing jig. Rather tedious but it can be done.
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 4:04pm
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I have done one 77 and two 74 Sharps actions using the quill method. Made my own cutters out of A2 then heat treated them. Everything has to be square and rigid to keep everything square. You have to be able to securely lock your quill so it doesn't rotate. Your holding fixture if not in a good mill vise must also be able to hold things steady. The actions were 8620 material so they cut easily. I take out as much as possible using end mills down to 1/4 inch which leaves a 1/8 radius in the corners. Then I square the corners. It takes time and patience but as said it can be done. Make sure and leave a small radius in the corners so you don't create stress risers. Built my fixtures and cutters from an old video of John King doing some 77 receiver kits for I think Rodney Storie in the early eighties.



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frnkeore
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #5 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 4:06pm
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You can also do it in a Bridgeport type mill. Bridgeport made a "slotting" head that went on the back of the turret. You see them on Ebay, every now and then. There are also dedicated Slotters. I used to have one, back in the mid 70's. It had a round, indexing, 12" table, about the right size for gun work.

But, you can also do one of, type stuff, using the quill on the BP. 

Grind a square tool, long enough to clear the bottom of the part and then, feed it in .002-.003 at a time. Do a rough then a finish cut.

The square tool could be made from a square HSS tool bit or a lathe parting tool. You'll have to find a good way to hold it in the quill. I would recommend a end mill holder so, it can bottom out (not hurting anything) and won't push up in the collect.
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #6 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 5:26pm
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"Building a Single Shot Falling Block Rifle Action" by Walter B. Mueller is the book and author's name I couldn't recall earlier. In it he describes (maybe photos too ?) a shop built attachment for the quill of a Bridgeport type mill. Actually, a smart design because the cutting tool is spring loaded and pulls away from the work piece on the return stroke so it doesn't drag.
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #7 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 5:50pm
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Frank DeHaas
  
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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #8 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 6:46pm
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I have cut a left hand extractor slot using the quill and handle on the milling machine. I have to figure out a spring loaded cutter. I was retracting buy hand for the return and it was confusing. DRO helps! I was holding the quill using a wrench on the top of the bolt and am interested in options.

Thanks for the help.
  
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GT
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #9 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 8:09pm
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Gerry,
I have a couple of different slotters in my shop that I've used over the years and a Bridgeport brand was another that I had but was happy when it went away...  I retro'd a K&T attachment to my #2 cincinatti and it works about as well a good Pratt and Whitney. 
A couple of things, is your Bridgeport a variable or a J-head?  The variable you have to put it in back gear, run it all the way down before you shut it off and a tool will still turn on you - some.  A j-head, leave it in high gear and throw your side lever forward and it will lock the spindle.   
I use either a 3/8" or 1/2" piece of cold rolled round, and silver solder a 1/4 or 5/16" HSS tool bit to the round and grind it to my desired shape, generally about a 60° or more included point and use that for cutting my mortice.  Be careful not to get things too hot.  Recently, switched from using HSS tool bits to using Tantung as it is a little more durable but it's more work and sometimes hard too find, even on eBay.
I use my BP spindle for squaring almost all my castings, but when its an action from a piece of stock, the slotters are a better choice.
As far as a clapper box or some such animal, I don't worry about it.  Run a neutral or negative rake on the face of the tool, plan on roughing things out and I've taken as much as .025" in that pass, but follow with a re-sharpened tool and scratching with a .005 or less finish pass.  The '74 Sharps is about the longest mortice to cut, plus the dual extractor cuts and I've had them turn out straight and square.
There's a photo of a tool using tantung and one of several Hepburns I did.  The tool shank diameter is dictated by what size mortice you're working on.  The hepburn doesn't give you a lot of room to manuever in.
Here's a most recent project, squaring the mortice on a Zettler, there's three of them now with this part done...  A little patience and finesse, which you have, they'll turn out fine.
Greg
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #10 - Sep 11th, 2023 at 9:57pm
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Here is a tool I made some years ago when I needed to square some holes at work and the company's policy wouldn't let me take them home and do them on my shaper. This fits into Bridgeport collet. The angle on the 1/2" square HSS tool in the holder gives relief on the two sides and the end grind gives the rake.
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2023 at 8:26am
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Last time I did a square hole I used a keyway broach. You would have to make up a guide to make it work.
  

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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #12 - Sep 18th, 2023 at 8:16pm
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I come here to learn stuff and am seldom disappointed! I saw Kootne's, system, above, and having a half inch square HSS cutter like he used, I put together a system and cut this hole. In order to set it up, I stabilize the quill like Greg said and place the tool loosely in the milling machine collet. Then I lower the quill to where I can grab the square cutter in the milling machine vice to line up the cutter. Then I tighten the collet, and I am good to go! The tool requires constant sharpening and I put a simple fixture on my grinder to get this right. 

Anyway, the whole hole process was quite doable!

Gentlemen, thanks!
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #13 - Sep 18th, 2023 at 10:17pm
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Looks like it turned out well!
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #14 - Sep 18th, 2023 at 10:35pm
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It looks like we are building something from scratch!
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #15 - Sep 18th, 2023 at 11:55pm
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I’ve done one breech block cut in a receiver using a Bridgeport quill.  For the cutting tool, I used a square carbide insert and it worked well, and was much faster than I thought it would be.  However, I found I had to move the receiver away from the cutter on the upstroke to avoid chipping the insert.  One day I may actually finish the project!
  
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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #16 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 12:56am
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bobw wrote on Sep 18th, 2023 at 10:35pm:
It looks like we are building something from scratch!


Scratch! Yup. My objective is to build a Hauck action with a Farquharson extraction system. I will try to post photos. I am using a scrap block of hot roll that was about the right size. The action will be a bit shorter than a Hauck, but should look the same.

AJ, Interesting looking action! Looks like we are about on the same page!
« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2023 at 1:02am by gwahir »  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #17 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 2:45am
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Another really important thing, with square cuts, is to grind your cutter with a corner radius, as jhm suggested, to help with stress risers, it will also make the cutting edge last longer.

A corner radius as small as 1/64 will help, 1/32 is more than twice as strong. A excellent finish in the corner is also very desirable.
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #18 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 6:19am
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frnkeore, I should have mentioned the radius if carbide inserts are used.  I don’t recall the radius on the inserts purchased, but it was a factor in the selection.
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #19 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 8:58am
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50 years ago when just starting my career in a mold shop and before we had our first tube type Elox EDM I used a Bridgeport Quillmaster to cut square pockets in the mill. A single flute cutter ground at a 90 degree and the Quillmaster set at 45 degrees did a slow but decent job to remove the radius from the corners of a pocket. I was curious and did a search, quite a bit of information on the internet.
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #20 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 9:54am
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I cut a BB mortise with the quill on my Bridgeport once. I made the broach out of drill rod.  I'll be doing another little broach job soon. I'll use a 1/4 lathe bit this time.  The hole needs to be enlarged and moved left just a bit. 

  

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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #21 - Sep 19th, 2023 at 10:41pm
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I like the way the square corner cuts. Could I add a radius with a small round file?
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #22 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 1:54am
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No, but, you could use a Dermal tool to do it.

A HSS tool bit, is much harder thand a file.
  

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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #23 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 7:51am
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frnkeore wrote on Sep 20th, 2023 at 1:54am:
No, but, you could use a Dermal tool to do it.

A HSS tool bit, is much harder thand a file.


Sorry. I did not make it clear. I don't want to change the tool. I want to add the radius to the finished cut. The tiny radius would extend beyond the walls, but the corner would disappear!
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #24 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 10:38am
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gwahir wrote on Sep 20th, 2023 at 7:51am:
frnkeore wrote on Sep 20th, 2023 at 1:54am:
No, but, you could use a Dermal tool to do it.

A HSS tool bit, is much harder thand a file.


Sorry. I did not make it clear. I don't want to change the tool. I want to add the radius to the finished cut. The tiny radius would extend beyond the walls, but the corner would disappear!


Maybe, with a small round file - small chainsaw file ?
If you look at the mortice corners on a Ruger No.1 - it almost looks like the corners were drilled prior to broaching or EDM ?
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #25 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 11:09am
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I think the mortise corners on the #1 are cast that way. Why not? I appreciate your bringing it up.
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #26 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 11:34am
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Gerry, 
Add a small radius with a three corner file.  The radius that Ruger puts in their #1 is a tiny bit excessive in my opinion, but I also see their reasoning.
Greg
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #27 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 12:36pm
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Do as GT says and finish it with a thin piece of emery (about 220 grit) wrapped around the file, to try to take most of the scratches out, from filing.
  

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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #28 - Sep 20th, 2023 at 7:29pm
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After the corners are relieved it is a whole lot easier to fit a square cornered breech block!
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #29 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 11:57am
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The cutter using 1/2" HSS. The cutting point is on the center line of the quill. It is sharpened only on the end; not on the sides.


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It takes a rather generous 1/2" cut and can require more force than I like to enter the material. I resolve the issue by  filing a small relief angle at the beginning of the cut.

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I usually advance the cutter a couple thousands at a time. With the relief angle the cutter enters the material easily. With oil on the material I can feel the cutter action as it shaves. I continue to move the cutter up and down in that position until I no longer feel it shave. It is a learning experience. The receiver will be cut some in its shaping which removes the relief angle so there is no cosmetic concern. I have this hole ready for the final clean up cut.
« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2023 at 12:21pm by gwahir »  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #30 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 11:17pm
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This technique may be older, but believe Harry Eales was the first to use it for a breech block recess.
Always called it the "Harry Eales Method".
Rest in peace, Harry. You are still missed.
Chuck
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #31 - Sep 26th, 2023 at 11:38pm
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Would love to read about it!
  
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gwahir
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #32 - Sep 29th, 2023 at 8:26am
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I wanted a better finish inside the breech block hole and also decided to make the narrow part wider; from .50" to .60". Here is the new block on the left and the recut, larger hole, in the receiver. The greater width allowed me to cut the sides of the hole with my current setup and finish it up nicely.


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Here is the new block in place. Some times the learning curve gets steep!


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The contact surfaces between the block and the receiver are as close to mating as I can cut them. I expect they will require a bit of scraping. There is no contact at the rear of the block, just on the recoil surfaces on the side.
« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2023 at 8:39am by gwahir »  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #33 - Oct 7th, 2023 at 6:24pm
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Nice work gwahir - looks good!
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #34 - Oct 13th, 2023 at 11:57am
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I worked with a retired aerospace machinist a number of years ago building a Martini from bar stock.
He had an Italian made attachment that attached to the quill of his Bridgeport milling machine and converted it into a vertical shaper. It was a large heavy attachment and unfortunately I don't know the manufactures name.
Chuck has passed away and I now use a shaper cutter in a milling cutter holder, to manually square up the corners of holes.
Otto
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #35 - Oct 13th, 2023 at 11:01pm
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Yuh. Being able to make an acceptable square hole opens up a whole bunch of possibilities!

When using this process, keep one eye on quill alignment. It can move under pressure, and we don't want that!
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2023 at 2:12pm by gwahir »  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #36 - Dec 23rd, 2023 at 8:12am
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gwahir, your project is looking good. nicely done.

singleshotsam wrote on Sep 19th, 2023 at 8:58am:
50 years ago when just starting my career in a mold shop and before we had our first tube type Elox EDM I used a Bridgeport Quillmaster to cut square pockets in the mill. A single flute cutter ground at a 90 degree and the Quillmaster set at 45 degrees did a slow but decent job to remove the radius from the corners of a pocket. I was curious and did a search, quite a bit of information on the internet.

Boy this brings back a lot of memories. I remember the old  Elox EDM's well. Loved it when we replaced it with a Charmilles EDM. And I have cut out the corners of a mold cavity with a Quillmaster. 
In my home shop I had both a Bridgeport Shaping Attachment and a die filer machine. Was glad when I got rid of them. When the die filer left my finger tips thanked me. (Pincher hell)
The very best way I found to make BB square hole was with a wire EDM, but I realize not a resource available to everyone. 

Chuckster, been a while since I heard the name of Harry Eales. I sure do miss him. Always wished I had gone to England to see him. RIP


  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #37 - Dec 24th, 2023 at 2:58pm
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Harry Eales ... Yes, a long time.
CHRIS
  
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Re: breech biock hole
Reply #38 - Feb 24th, 2024 at 6:31am
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rgchristensen wrote on Dec 24th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
Harry Eales ... Yes, a long time.
CHRIS

Wonder what ever happened to the Borchardt he was building.   
  
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