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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223 (Read 4257 times)
brian1
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making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Mar 31st, 2023 at 9:40am
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I posted this info on another site, and thought I'd mention it here.  You CAN make rimmed brass from rimless.  I didn't believe it at first, but now I know it can be done.  It requires at least a 5 ton press and a 7mm FL die.   The 7mm neck provides the sizing for the new case.  You also need a lathe.   You push the brass back almost to the rim, then you trim off the excess with the lathe.  Then trim the case to length.   It's important to push the donut all the way back so it has a sharp ridge, not a flat ridge.

I made a video of the process of how to do this. I am no video guy, and my knowledge of how to use my video editing software does not extend beyond the absolute basics, but hopefully this rather hokey video I put together will give you a picture of the process.
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This will make brass that is very strong and should last a long time.
Any questions or more details needed, let me know.
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2023 at 9:51am by brian1 »  

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ndnchf
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #1 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 9:51am
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Don't sweat the lack of video skills, I'm the same way with mine.  What is important is the information you share.  I watched this a couple weeks ago and found it very helpful. I've not done it myself, as I have a fair supply of .25-20SS.  But if I come across some cheap .223, I might give it a try just for fun.  I have everything necessary.   

Thanks for sharing  Smiley
  
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #2 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 1:26pm
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Unlike some brass, 223 is readily available and inexpensive if you want to experiment.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #3 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 2:21pm
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   I just watched the video, and I believe the lesson learned, is that the one responsible for the process should be awarded the perseverance award of this century. The video, was a success.
Congratulations Brian, for a job well done.
  

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uscra112
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #4 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 8:33pm
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Well done!

Brian added one little fillip that I never thought of, which is using rosin to help keep the case from slipping on the driver spud while turning down the "doughnut".  Saving that for future reference.

A reminder: This brass is much thicker than OEM, so published loads have to be backed off a full grain more than usual to start.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #5 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 8:50pm
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Specifically what die is needed 7x57 Mauser, 7mm rem mag? Thanks for clarification 
Mike
  

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uscra112
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #6 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 8:54pm
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The 7x57 Mauser is much to be preferred, because it has a relatively shallow shoulder angle.  It's that part of the die that does all the forming.  A steeper angle would require more pressure at the end, and the face of the case takes quite a beating as it is.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #7 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 9:00pm
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Thanks 
Mike
  

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brian1
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #8 - Mar 31st, 2023 at 11:26pm
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Oh, and since I see uscra112 is on here, I gotta give him big props, as he's the man who taught me how to do this.  He also suggested that a more effective driver for the case on the lathe would be, instead of trying to drive the case using the live center at the mouth and some rosin at the head, to make one that is held in place at the tailstock and goes into the case and jams up against the inside of the case head, pressing it hard into the little aluminum driver held in the chuck jaws.   That should let you take off more brass with each pass, and speed up the lathe work.   I plan to try that next batch.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #9 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 11:14am
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I made some years ago for my .25-21 Stevens using .223 brass. But I turned the base diameter down a little first, and then they sized down easier. Had to go back in another step to final turn the ridge off above the base, but this made forming them easier, and I did them on my Rock Chucker press.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 11:22am
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Two things.  First, I cut a 'driver' in the collet that slightly wedges into the primer pocket. Therefore not needing rosin.  Could be cut to ensure that hte primer pocket is not undersized (like a primer pocket swaging tool).  One pass with the cutter does the job on bringing the brass to size.

Secondly, these are sections from early on, to see how far the forming must go down the case.  Note that if it is not far enough as shown - the brass is far too thin just above the base.  These were done on a Rock Chucker.  Next attempt will be to try to do it in two passes taking it down a little at a time so it can be done on the Rock Chucker.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 12:01pm
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Thank you for those photos.  Excellent illustration of why the initial pressing operation has to be done properly.

@marlinman - what die did you use for your .25-21 forming?

Phil
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 1:17pm
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A couple of years ago Phil sent me down this rabbit hole and I discovered it's a very deep abyss.  It's not that anyone will take it this far but I had to.  Here's a photo I just shot with some descriptions of what I made experimenting.  There are a considerable number of dies to make to get to the end results here and the frustration level goes up considerably. 
 
I have used the swaged 25-21 brass I made with probably 10 reloads on it - in itself it's a fragile case to reload and I've found the 25-25 even worse.  Anneal too much and they crumple, don't anneal and they split.  The Vickerman seating die (previous post question) works well for these... After dealing with these longer cases, the 25-20 are a breeze.  I've made nearly 100 of these and they function and shoot quite well.
 
I really appreciate the video Brian, the press you are using is a necessary item and if I do any more I'll go that route.  I currently use 5 ton arbor press - it works but it's a workout.

* I labeled the internal nibbing tool a swage in the photo, struggling with the pencil this morning... There's a die that went with this that gets chucked in the lathe - it worked but it was slow and tough to repeat dimensions.  The arbor at the bottom of the page has marks for lengthening for 25-21 and for 25-25.  At a glance you can see where you're at.  The roll, replaces a knurl in a knurling tool, a little lube and the brass grows quickly.
« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2023 at 1:27pm by GT »  

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uscra112
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #13 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 4:04pm
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You went much deeper than anybody else, drawing those out to .25-21.  Kudos.!!!  

Not that I'll ever DO it, but I'd like to see that nibbing arbor entire.  How long is it?  Straight cylinder?  The reduced diameter gets chucked?  Jaw chuck or collet?   

I have a 44-1/2 in .25-21, but it got little use because of a ridiculously heavy trigger that I never fixed.  A safe queen for 20 years.

« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2023 at 4:18pm by uscra112 »  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #14 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 7:33pm
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Phil,
Here is a couple pictures, the one in motion was dated March of '20 so it's been a while since I've touched this.  The second photo is of the actual arbor, I smoked it and filed the profile to match the inside of the case as close as I could get it.  It has a line that I take the brass to for 25-21 then up to the ridge if I'm doing 25-25.  I did this in a 3 jaw chuck and looking at the shape of the portion that was chucked on, I had an issue at some point, appears to have spun in the chuck - I can't remember that happening and can't believe that the brass would have stuck to the mandrel either...
I have a LW that I re-barreled in 25-21 but never finished it... wood I think.  Now that this has all resurfaced I may have to change direction a little...
thanks for sharing this process with me back then.
Greg
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #15 - Apr 1st, 2023 at 7:46pm
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Looks too easy to be true, once you have the tools made.   

Thanks.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #16 - Apr 2nd, 2023 at 10:51am
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I just used my C&H4D .25-21 die set to form the cases down. Some Imperial sizing wax, and multiple strokes to get the cases down to final size. 
I tried this without turning base diameter first, and had no luck. Then I used up numerous cases figuring out how much metal to remove prior to forming to make them form easier, but not lose too much metal. I found not every brand of case were equal, and ruled out some that had thin spots towards the lower base diameter, and weren't good candidates. Can't recall the brands I liked best, or which I avoided now, as it's been a very long time since I did these cases for the Stevens 47 I had then.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #17 - Oct 16th, 2023 at 5:12pm
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I followed the directions on this thread on making 25-20 ss brass from 223 cases.  Everything worked as discussed but now I need to thin the brass at the neck.  What is the best way to cut the brass at the neck?  The brass out of the sizing die is tapered nothing is straight so open to suggestions.  Thanks for your help making cases.  Charlie
  
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #18 - Oct 16th, 2023 at 5:27pm
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I have chucked the rim in my little mini-lathe and the neck in a center and spin at high speed using a file and sanding block to remove metal.  Not precise but it works in my tight chambered 32-40.
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #19 - Oct 16th, 2023 at 6:49pm
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I'm assuming you want to thin the neck walls.   

The NECK portion should be within a thou or two of being straight, so O.D. turning is easiest.   But I'm concerned that you should say it's tapered.    Have you run an M-die type expander in it yet?

Can I also assume that you have a lathe? 

Phil



  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #20 - Oct 17th, 2023 at 4:14am
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cheatin_charlie wrote on Oct 16th, 2023 at 5:12pm:
I followed the directions on this thread on making 25-20 ss brass from 223 cases.  Everything worked as discussed but now I need to thin the brass at the neck.  What is the best way to cut the brass at the neck?  The brass out of the sizing die is tapered nothing is straight so open to suggestions.  Thanks for your help making cases.  Charlie


If you're referring to the neck wall thickness, what you need is a K&M neck turning tool.  Essentially a micro hand lathe.   All the benchrest guys use them.   All the tools, plus PDF and video info here:
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #21 - Oct 18th, 2023 at 8:15am
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I have decided to make a bushing to fit over the neck to force it straight then inside ream the neck to get the brass to the correct thickness.  Since these cases were made from .223 rem. the necks are formed from the shoulder area of the .223 brass and is varying thickness.  The bushing will also keep the brass from expanding when reaming.  I believe this will solve the problem.
Charlie
  
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #22 - Oct 18th, 2023 at 9:15am
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Best way to deal with neck thickness is to press the cases onto a mandrel (well centered, of course, so you may have to turn the mandrel in place, or rely on a collet).   Then it is easy to turn the OD to leave the concentric desired neck thickness.   If you use a stepped mandrel, you can make the cases to exactly fit the chamber and leave a "stop" on the inside to give a loaded round of the desired OAL.   Everything then will be perfectly aligned.  Don't ever have to size the necks, just push the bullets in with your fingers.

If you put a shell-holder in the tail-stock, that will serve to push the cases onto the mandrel and to pull them off.

CHRIS
  
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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #23 - Oct 18th, 2023 at 10:56am
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cheatin_charlie wrote on Oct 18th, 2023 at 8:15am:
I have decided to make a bushing to fit over the neck to force it straight then inside ream the neck to get the brass to the correct thickness.  Since these cases were made from .223 rem. the necks are formed from the shoulder area of the .223 brass and is varying thickness.  The bushing will also keep the brass from expanding when reaming.  I believe this will solve the problem.
Charlie


If you can keep the reamer running concentric, this is the best, if not the easiest, way. 

The benchrest guys talk about a "doughnut" forming at the transition from shoulder to neck, when OD turning.  Reaming avoids this altogether.   

The Wilson system reams, for what that's worth.

At one point, after I got my "big" South Bend 10" Heavy running, I considered a pressing a case into a shouldered drill bushing, (McMaster 8492A176) chucking the assembly in a collet, and boring the ID out with a boring bar.  The bushing and collet would keep everything concentric, so the neck walls would be uniform. It would be slow, but you'd only have to do it once.  Using a shouldered bushing would give you something to grip when extracting the case using a reloading press.   

  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #24 - Dec 18th, 2023 at 5:57am
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@uscra112 - I recognized your username bidding on some Lovell ammo on GB, so I didn't bid against you.   Hope you win it!   Smiley
  

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Re: making 25-20SS and 22 Lovell brass from .223
Reply #25 - Dec 18th, 2023 at 6:22am
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Thanks Brian!   If (and it's a big if) it's actually in decent condition I plan to convert it back to .25-20.  That old brass really isn't up to Lovell pressures.  Never was, which is why there's so little original .25-20 left.  The Lovell guys were running it as high as 50,000 psi, and were getting just 3 or 4 loads out of it before it started failing.  Reverting it back to .25-20 will only subject it to pressures in the 10-12 kpsi range, and it should last a while.  Meanwhile the converted .223 will serve Lovell shooters much better.

I've actually got plenty of both, and being so badly handicapped now I never get the Lovells out anymore. So if it does convert back OK, I'll put it up for sale on the ASSRA forum.   People need it, as you well know.
  

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