Just bought this rifle at an auction. Taking it to the range tomorrow. I don't know a lot about these rifles I just liked the look of it and it was a decent price  ($280.00USD)

Apparently at some point it was re-barreled to .22 Hornet. Everything appears right and tight the opening action works solidly. The scope is a Belding & Mull 3X and a unique feature to me is you can adjust the elevation and windage at both the back and front mounts.

Also if anyone knows what the stamp marks on the underside of the action are that would be great.

I'd really be interested in any information from the founts of knowledge in this group about either rifle or the scope.

Regards, Roger

I may be incorrect, seeing the 32 stamped on the bottom of the action,your rifle possibly started out as a .32 rimfire Marksman converted to centerfire,rather than a .44 shot 101 featherweight.
Has the firing pin been moved and sleeved?

Regardless of whether it started out as a rim- or center-fire action, it's still a Marksman, which was primarily offered as one of Stevens' better boy's rifles.  Or let's look at it this way: Even factory-loaded .22 Hornets proved to be too "hot" for the Model 44, a stronger action than this one.  Therefore, I'd want to shoot it only with very light loads, if at all.

The good news is that the Belding & Mull scope, while not seen that often, is potentially a very good one and is certainly from the same period as the rifle.

All-in-all, in my opinion, not a "varmint rifle" by any means but still potentially a nice outfit for rambling in the fields and woods after small game.

Bill Lawrence

MrTipUp wrote on Nov 6^th, 2020 at 8:18pm:


Thanks for heads up Bill. I have a couple of questions. Regards the B&M Scope any idea where I might find a 'user manual' and any idea of the value.

In regards to lighter loads, I don't have the budget to re-barrel it so looks like this is my only option if I want to shoot it - what would constitute a lighter load. I use black powder for 45-70 would that be an option for hand loading 22 Hornet ammo?

Retreever

Fifty rounds of commercial ammo?   Lucky man.  

Black powder of course.  

My bolt-thrust calculator yields numbers like these for the cartridges that the Marksman was originally built for
400 lbs.  .22 LR High Velocity
550 lbs.  .32 Long rimfire
700 lbs.  .25 Stevens rimfire

800 lbs.  .38 Special wadcutter target loads

800 lbs.  .22 Hornet loaded down to 1900 fps w/35 grain bullet.

1800 lbs.  Approximate commercial Hornet 45 grain load - 2600 fps.  

These are only engineering calculations, not much tested in the real world for lack of instrumentation.  But you see where we're coming from.

Quickload says a load of 3.5 grains Unique behind a 45 grain bullet would yield in the neighborhood of 800 lbs. thrust.  MV comparable to .22 magnums. 

uscra112 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2020 at 2:04pm:


Yes, commercial ammo. 

I currently reload 45LC with Trail Boss and 45-70 with Goex ffG Black Powder or Triple7 depending on the gun (antique or repro). I'm thinking Trail Boss for the 22 Hornet reloads, what do you think?

Retreever

I don't know about Trail Boss in a Hornet sized case, just that it can build pressure very fast. For bullets, I use Lyman 225438 (essentially a copy of the 22 LR bullet) at 44 grains and Lyman 425415 at 55 grains. Both are gas check but at light loads will be fine without them. You could tumble lube them easily. I would think around 3 grains of Unique would work good for you.

  Me too, that is impressive!

Thanks for the comments folks, just to be clear according to the seller statement from the auction the conversion was done by a professional gunsmith. That said given the preponderance of comments I will definitely be working with my own reloads from now on. I have been researching online since my earlier post and seeing a lot of good comments around Trail Boss 2.0 to 3.8g under a 40g bullet using small pistol primers (rather than small rifle primers). I also reload black powder 45-70 so bp is an option for me. I've already ordered a set of dies.

See attached pics for info on the commercial bullets fired through the gun today.

Retreever

PS the price tag is in CAD, it would be about $45USD

Beat me to it.  Yes, absolutely a "K" Hornet.  Must use "K" Hornet dies.

My Hornet Contender with the stretched frame (bought it that way, unknowingly) I had to ream out to the "K" case so it could headspace on the shoulder.  Headspacing on the rim was about .010" over the spec.  Did this "professional gunsmith" know something about what he'd created?  Leading to it being sold? 

The original Hornet case has a very shallow taper, really no shoulder at all.  It was designed to headspace on the rim.  If the headspace grows even a little, the case has a disappointing tendency to stretch in the body and separate, often in a few as 2 or 3 firings.  Lyle Kilbourne designed a modification to the chamber that let the case be fatter in the body and have a sharp shoulder.  His intention was to get a little more powder into the case, but a secondary benefit is that the case can now headspace on that shoulder, just as rimless cases do.  No more case separations due to excess headspace at the rim!   The beauty of the thing from the user standpoint was/is that tocreate the new case you just fire an original case in the modified chamber.  Which is why the cases you extracted don't look like the cases you loaded in.  

When you order dies, order "K" Hornet dies, and when you use them be sure not to push that shoulder back when sizing.  The cases as they came out of your rifle are a perfect fit to the chamber, and you don't want to upset that.  Neck size only.

As to the value of your scope, with only pictures to go by, here's my opinion.  It looks to be in fine exterior condition and complete.  Since you put 50 rounds through the rifle - and got away with it, you very lucky man - I presume the optics are clear and the crosshairs are intact and not loose or deformed  If all that's true, I'd say the scope is worth at least $300 and could easily be worth up to twice that.  It does look good on the rifle.

Bill Lawrence

Hey retreever, I said they would know on here and be able to tell you all you need to know
Gumpy

uscra112 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2020 at 6:56pm:


Thanks for the explanation, I was getting a bit confused. I thought the ammo had been labeled incorrectly by the manufacturer because the box clearly says .22 Hornet. Will definitely order k-Hornet reloading dies.

Retreever

Yet Stevens did use the Marksman action for the 101 featherweight .44 shot shotgun. There seems to be quite a few of these little guns around for only being made a few years,I've seen quite a few for sale,I guess most people don't know what to do with them. What scares me more than a .22 hornet Marksman,would be one of the .44 shot guns being rechambered to .410,which I've heard of,I can envision the barrel being launched down range,since the barrels on these only being held in place by the take down screw. I've seen a few of the 101 .44 shots with a .32 rimfire barrel on it making it a .32 colt,or rechambered to .32 S&W.

General consensus across several forums is this is indeed chambered for .22 K Hornet. I have found you can get K Hornet dies but there was an earlier comment about 'neck sizing' and I have found there are indeed (2) versions of the die sets one for full length sizing and one for neck sizing. Till now I have only reloaded straight wall cartridges 45LC and 45-70 can someone explain the difference between full length sizing and neck sizing and is there a preferred version for the K Hornet?

Retreever

MrTipUp wrote on Nov 8^th, 2020 at 10:03am:


Thanks Bill, I'll check out the suggestions you made. I wasn't necessarily thinking of making any changes to the mount but more about how to adjust windage/elevation front and rear to zero in the scope itself. The mechanism is quite complex.

As for 'first shot' when I decide to sell it - you got it. I'm assuming you are in the US and I'm in Canada so not sure how easy that will be.

Thanks Again
Roger

There are a few early improved Hornet chambers, the K won the popularity contest and is most widely used now with available off the shelf dies. The difference is body length and taper, shoulder angle and neck length. Easiest way to sort it out is shoulder diameter and neck length.

I have the KE version which has less taper, larger diameter shoulder. To resize I use a Redding neck only die adjusted to only size 3/4 down the neck. Even set this way it will reduce the shoulder diameter .003” and also partially down the body. 

It would be worth it to measure your fired brass and compare to K Hornet specs.

Thanks Dellet appreciate you taking the time to post the images.

Roger

I wonder if it is possible that the gunsmith threaded that receiver tube and the barrel and screwed it in? 
Lee Gibbs

Crossed my mind, too.  Would only have to thread the outermost 1/2 inch or so, and the thread would have to be pretty fine.  I would have.

Not primers.  The charge is definitely too low.  2 grains might work with a cast bullet, and you might get 1100 fps.  Obviously jacketed bullets require much more pressure to engrave.  3 grains is indeed more like it. Quickload says 13,000 psi, and my thrust calculator says ~740 pounds-force, which is right in line with the .25 Stevens rimfire, which was one of the common chamberings for the Marksman. 

uscra112 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 3:37pm:


Thanks for the confirmation , must appreciated. 

Retreever

Thing about Trail Boss is that it's fast powder but it has a very low specific energy content.  i.e. it builds pressure fast but that pressure is not sustained as the bullet travels down the barrel.  Good for pistols, not so good for rifles.  A larger charge of something slower is a better bet for a rifle. In the computer model a charge of 6.2 grains of 2400 would get you over 1800  fps, for the same peak pressure as that 3.0 charge of Trail Boss, which will not even break 1400 fps, all other things being equal. (That's assuming a 45 grain jacketed bullet. An equal weight cast bullet will go slower at lower pressures, owing to the lesser  initial engraving force.)

In these days of famine, better-suited powders may not be obtainable, so we have to use what we can get. 

This is why I love Quickload.  You can "try out" dozens of possibilities without ever actually loading a single round. It won't ever give you a fine-tuned optimum load, but it will help you see what loads are not going work well, and why.

It's a ballistics software.  My copy runs on a Windows laptop.   

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Old Soldier wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 7:16pm:


That would be awesome,  yes please. 

Retreever

Um.......have you read the thread?

Old Soldier wrote on Dec 7^th, 2020 at 1:22pm:


Thanks much appreciated 

Roger

This ought to do it.

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Still leaves you without a bullet seating die, though, and it'll size too small for plain lead bullets.

You need a Lyman M expander die like this (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
2 dies sets are for jacketed bullets and don't give the little expansion needed for lead ones. 3 die sets include the expander.

The Lee "Universal Expander" die is cheap.  But as delivered it only flares the case mouth, without expanding the neck.  How this is useful to cast bullet shooters is beyond me.

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HOWEVER, a little lathe work neatly converts the supplied plug into a proper expander, and expanders for other cases are easily turned up out of bar stock. For some years I've been making custom mandrels for my M dies from a high quality threaded rod, but making custom mandrels for the Lee die is easier.   

Flaring alone is not sufficient.  Sizer dies meant for jacketed bullets leave the neck I.D. 2 or 3 thou smaller than your cast bullet, maybe more if your bullet is sized up to fit the throat.  Flaring alone encourages you to seat your cast bullet into such an undersize neck, but that deforms it; essentially sizing it down just as your lubrisizer did. The bullet is thus undersize when it enters the throat, leaving annular clearance, which will allow it to tip, and/or permit blowby.  A cast bullet should never be tighter than a light drag fit in the neck if you want accuracy.  In revolvers and repeating rifles a crimp is thus necessary to keep it from moving.  Our single shots of course need no crimp.  

The tiny .22 bullet is particularly susceptible to deformation if the neck is too tight.

Lyman mandrels have two diameters. The first diameter opens the whole neck to that drag fit, the second opens it half a thou or so more, to ease the entry of the bullet into the neck. This larger diameter should enter the neck only a few thou. Chamfering the mouth will prevent shaving, unless your seating tools are badly misaligned.

One fault with the Lyman mandrels is that they usually don't come in the optimum size for your bullet and brass.  Preparing .38 Special target ammunition a few years ago I found that I needed different expansion mandrels, depending on brass make and temper, to get the optimum fit.   This is why I started making my own.  Buffalo Bore is offering alternative sizes in the aftermarket, but I don't see any in the smaller sizes.