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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rolling Block conversion to .223 (Read 14811 times)
frnkeore
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #30 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 6:41pm
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Why lap it, just use a guided counter bore. You can still use the threaded guild to put pressure on the BB.

While the 223 pressures are a bit high, chamber for 222 and use that data, that should be ok, bringing thrust pressure, in line with the larger BP cases. Hoop and thread strength aren't a issue, with modern steel barrels. After all they were made in 30/40 and 7mm Mauser. The 30/40, gives a little more breech thrust than the 223 and so does the 7mm.

I would feel safer with a RB, made from alloy steel and would use that, over the original ones, made from a close relative of mild steel.

I posted about venting the FP, at least a few years ago. It's not hard to do when making a bushed BB. I didn't get any flax at that time.

For myself, I have more issues about milling the receivers rings octagon and CCHing. 

The '03 is much more prone to catastrophic case failure than a RB and doesn't handle gas well, either. Low numbers can and have blown up, altogether at lower pressures. I think many more people have been harmed with the '03 than RB's.

Frank
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #31 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 8:14pm
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There's not a lot of room for too much headspace on a Rolling Block rifle. If it's got too much headspace it also usually will be misaligned or out of square with the bore too.  When this happens the cases will actually bend at the head under firing, and even full length sizing wont correct a bent case if it happens near the base.
I've had to correct the breech blocks to square them up to the bore on almost every Rolling Block I've used for a project build. Some don't take much, while others take a lot to correct. But it's necessary to do it to ensure not only tight headspacing, but also to ensure brass works, and the gun shoots accurately.
  

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KWK
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #32 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 9:56pm
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... I make a threaded plug that goes in the action threads, with a center bored hole...


Now that brings back a conversation I had with Higginbotham nearly 20 years ago. I think he did mention using a stub of a barrel, although it seems that was to center mark the end of the firing pin hole on the breech face. Regardless, your technique makes eminently good sense.
« Last Edit: Jul 4th, 2019 at 10:03pm by KWK »  

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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #33 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 2:35pm
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ssdave
Really like your idea to sq up the breech face, I will try this. 
Thanks
  
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #34 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 2:45pm
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Thanks Frank
Was really looking for some other experience in caliber/chamber pressure info. Seems you have been down this road a while ago.
Along with ssdave this is good info. 
And Bill, I did mark the barrel with .223 only
  
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KWK
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #35 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:39pm
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For myself, I have more issues about milling the receivers rings octagon and CCHing.


Embarrassed  My .30-40 has both! 

I keep pressures down to about 35 ksi (estimated) and never fire factory in it. From my 30" barrel, it's 220 gr at 2000 fps, the original sporting and military load.

I looked through Army reports from the 1890s when the Krag was being developed. Depending on the powder, their crusher readings ran low to mid 30s up to about 40.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #36 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 10:22am
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Milling the receiver rings to octagon is no different than Remington did originally IF the receiver ring is the late version with the larger receiver ring. 
I wont use an earlier smaller receiver ring milled to octagon for anything but a .22RF myself. It just leaves far too little metal to make me feel comfortable for any CF cartridge I'd want to use in a Rolling Block.
  

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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #37 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:58pm
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ssdave KWK
The question of the stepped button on the face of the breech roller and the question of safety analysis:
Taking the published .223 max pressure of 39kpsi the force on the breech face is 4305 lbf !, this is no kidding load.
Max stress capable of the breech roller is 52,000 psi
Calculated stress on the breech roller is F/A =4305/.5 in sq (measured), results in 8555 psi
Safety factor at this loading is 6.08
Max shear force on the breech is F/A where A is .12 x .74 =4808 psi , max shear capability is .5 max tensile =52000/2 = 26000psi
Safety factor in shear = 5.41
Pivot pins are in double shear and calculated using mild steel where tensile is 78300/2 =39150 psi
Calculated shear for these .375 dia pins = 19500 psi
Safety factor =2.01
Now to the stepped button , all are right that this is a work around for something else, that something else was found in the actual diameter of the pivot pins and the pivot holes in the two rollers. The hammer roller had a clearance of .0035", the breech was .0015"
Made new pins and lapped them to the respective roller and the gap and stepped feature on the button were eliminated. 
Here is some other info when questioned about pressures, found the 7 x 57 has a 51,000 pressure which all of the following were RB calibers, 8 x 50 (label) 
46200, 7.65 x 53 (Argentine)  56565
See the Brownell video with one of their gunsmith /collector of RB, stated the RB was capable of 46 kpsi.
Lot of history also.
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Thanks for inputs, if you are ever in East Texas come by and let's shoot!
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #38 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 10:27am
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Are those pressures for 7x57 and 8x50 the pressures used for loading them back in the early 1900's when Rollers were chambered for them? Or are those modern pressure ratings? 
I've been told that those cartridges were not loaded to the same levels then as they were later. And I've seen a large number of #5 actions chambered in 7x57 that were loose from shooting that ammo. It's pretty common to see headspace issues in original 7x57 Rollers.
  

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craigd
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #39 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 10:55am
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The play in the action might not be reduced to what a locking rotary, not rolling, bolt might be able to average. Can a thumb cam in a round like the ramps of a bolt can. If headspace changes on firing a bolt gun, there is an even rearward increase, on the rolling block the angle of the breech face will change. To me that means it's not only about the pressure

I realize that happens with traditional cartridges also, but the favorites might end up with quite a bit lower pressure against the block. I believe the action can contain the pressure, but I'd wonder if the conditions that caused the original case head separations can be fully eliminated. However it turns out, if it's a reloading necessity to get that bullet weight and psi goal, I'd just think that the brass may not hold up like traditional cartridges and the process might be rifle unque.

Only opinion, never once said it wasn't interesting. I myself can't get enough of the similar .222, but it's out of a bolt rifle.
  
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KWK
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #40 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:18am
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The Lebel number appears to be the old CIP crusher indicated psi, likely for the later Balle N machine gun rounds. The rolling blocks were likely for Balle D or maybe even for surplus Balle M. I have seen a claim the WW-I rounds ran 41 ksi, which given the case diameter, would have been a quite high load on the breech.

I've read the "7 mm" was not quite the Mauser but an approximation made by Remington and not loaded to Mauser pressures in the ammo Remington supplied for them. 

I'm not sure where the "published .223 max pressure of 39kpsi" comes from. Hodgdon has data close to the 55 ksi (piezo) SAAMI limit, and the CIP rating is 62 ksi which is likely the NATO limit.

The "max stress capable of the breech roller is 52,000 psi" is likely taken off the Tippmann site and looks suspiciously like the typical SAAMI max for CUP pressure ratings, for 52 ksi is rather low for a modern gun steel. 

I did some back of the envelope stress calculations once. I recall thinking the maximum stress is in ring surrounding the breech pin, but it's been a while.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:23am by KWK »  

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craigd
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #41 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:24am
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Possibly, a point to keep in mind about the original higher pressure rolling block chamberings is that they were design for reliable battle field service, and not controlled recreational use. I doubt if accuracy, brass life or shooting loose mattered much.
  
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #42 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 8:35am
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KWK
The 39.000 psi came from Hodgen for Varget max loads, granted not Rem factory, so I ran the stress numbers on the 55 kpsi:
The Tippman steel is identified as 52 kpsi
Breech Roller max force = 6071 lbf
Sigma for the breech roller at minimum cross section = 12065 psi
Sf= 4.31
Shear load in same= 6780 psi
Sf= 3.83
Double shear in the roller pins= 27500 psi
Sf= 1.42
Made a model in Solidworks and loaded as above and the model stress analysis agrees with the calculations, the max stress is located at a a change in geometry where the pivot pin flanges meet the larger breech roller block, which is where you would expect. However this is a concentrated spot and not a broad area of stress, could be rationalized that the high stress is "spread" to the larger mass surrounding it. Typically in modeling these kind of stresses are considered very low in critical analysis. 
The calibers the RB used certainly have varied over their life span, don't doubt the lower charges for the same caliber. The Brownell video implied that a lot of RB's were "abused" with loads that were not recommended but used anyway in time of war. Just goes to the mystic of the RB holding up to the overpowered loads. May have been detrimental to the RB action in many forms but seems they held together on a larger scale'
This has been informative for me to gain the insight of those experienced and knowledgeable of the RB.
The .223 RB has been performing really well and groups at 50 with iron sights has been less than 1" and I don't shoot that well. Tried a 16" gong plate at 300 yds and rang it 3 out of 4 times, quit after that , Quigley moment, and probably couldn't repeat that on a bet!
Cheers
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #43 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 11:51am
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The pins are likely stronger than the block they operate in. Wonder what pressure the block will take before it breaks at the internal corner at the bottom of the breech face? That's the weakest point, and where they usually let go when stressed too far.
  

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Re: Rolling Block conversion to .223
Reply #44 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 7:11pm
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marlinguy, the failure is in the pin flanges on the roller, sigma = F/A, with 15,558 lbf applied to the face of the breech roller the flanges fail in tensile failure, pins will fail before this happens. This would be a catastrophic failure. One would have to load a super hot double load to get this kind of force. 
However, the failure mode for a block like this is probable fatigue failure, repeated firing of excessive pressure rounds would do this, a crack would start and propagate. Probably one flange would fail, and block would become to loose to function. Material properties of the breech rollers and pins would have to be tested to verify the real values of tensile strengths for old guns. 
This is were the caution of "old" guns and experience is invaluable.
  
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