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40-65 in a low wall. (Read 31126 times)

Oprod Participating Member Offline Posts: 16 Joined: Nov 2^nd, 2015	40-65 in a low wall. Dec 25^th, 2015 at 4:26pm	Print Post
	So reading past posts it seems members of this forum are against having an older low wall chambered in 40-65. Doing some reading it seems there ate two diameters of barrel shanks. Some think the thicker shank might be alright. Others state low wall just isn't safe because there is not enough meat behind the block. My book on rifle actions state that the actions are good to about 40,000 cup. The 40-65 doesn't approach this pressure at least in black powder. So am I missing something? Have my numbers wrong?


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rgchristensen Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1062 Joined: Jan 2^nd, 2014	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #1 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 4:37pm	Print Post
	It's not the pressure, per se, it's the FORCE. Multiply the pressure x the area of the cartridge head, taking the diameter as the ID at the base. This will give you the rear-ward force on the block. That said, you still have to worry about the hoop stress on the bbl shank. A bigger diameter case will put a lot more stress on the barrel shank than will a small case. My personal opinion is that almost all single-shot blow-ups are failures of the barrel rather than the action. CHRIS RGChristensen


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15771 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #2 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 4:44pm	Print Post
	A number of people I've spoken with are under the assumption that a new barrel, with modern metallurgy, somehow fixes all these older guns with a weaker action design. The barrel metallurgy may be better, or the thread diameter may be larger, but it still doesn't change the design of the gun.

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jy3855 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 368 Location: California Joined: Jul 13^th, 2015	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #3 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 6:41pm	Print Post
	How strong is a low wall compared to a forged-frame Ballard? It seems to me, though in truth I don't know, that the Low Wall is as strong as a Ballard, and Ballards are chambered for 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90. Asking because I just don't know!


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2917 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #4 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 6:47pm	Print Post
	We have a shooter who lets his 15yr-old daughter shoot a Low Wall in 38-55. I always stay away and wonder what he will think if it comes apart in his daughter's face. Something they would both carry with them the rest of their lives.

	Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11331 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #5 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:25pm	Print Post
	jy3855 wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 6:41pm: How strong is a low wall compared to a forged-frame Ballard? It seems to me, though in truth I don't know, that the Low Wall is as strong as a Ballard, and Ballards are chambered for 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90. Asking because I just don't know! The low wall was made in two sizes. Pretty sure the larger one had the same size barrel shank the hiwall has. (The large shank hiwall). In my opinion the large lowall with large shank is strong enough for the 40-65 W but with BP or safe low pressure smokeless loads. Not heavy duplex loads. Ballard VS Lowall for strength? The Ballard will let you know when it is being stressed. First sign is the lever pin bends. A sure sign is when you fire a shot and the action falls open. The lowall being a true falling block fails at the breech block mortise first. Any action and any rifle can be blown up. Double charge a lowall chambered in 44-40 or 32-20, etc. I use a Lowall in 32-40 with BP and smokeless. Have been using it for many years. My kids and X's, fellow shooters and girlfriends have used it with no problems. Has several bazzillion rounds through it. Should you chamber a lowall in 40-65? Can you load save ammunition? Two lowalls, one chambered in 32-40 and the other 38-55. Both have a bazzillions of rounds through them. Nobody runs and hides. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11331 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #6 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:41pm	Print Post
	I don't understand the thing about the lowall win. I have an Aydt rifle chambered in 38-55. Weak action with absolutely nothing supporting the rear of the breech block. Never any mention of other weak actions, just the poor picked on lowall. I think it's sort of politically correct. And posters like that little feather in their cap. Joe.
	« Last Edit: Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:17am by westerner »
	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 7478 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #7 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 8:47pm	Print Post
	Why do it when you can get a HiWall. On the other hand how about low number 03's. You could in theory shoot them with 1600 FPS cast bullet loads, no one does it. We do shoot smokless loads in Trapdoors and Kraigs holding pressure down. Not a bit safer than a low number 03. Boats


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11331 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #8 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 10:13pm	Print Post
	MVA has actions for sale. Got to drool over two at Butte a couple weeks ago. One was a plain single trigger. The other was a double set. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Oprod Participating Member Offline Posts: 16 Joined: Nov 2^nd, 2015	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #9 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:27pm	Print Post
	I ask because I'm in a bit of a quandary. I've bought a low wall in 40-65. It has been actively shot for 5-6 years and been to nationals twice. The action is tight and smooth. I asked the smith at the time he was making the gun, why a low wall and we discussed my reservations at the time. He pointed me to the pressures of the cartridge and those of the reciever and said with the new badger barrel, it would be fine. i was thinking the afore mentioned 38-55 was a higher pressure cartridge then the 40-65, so Mabry im alright?


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7142 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #10 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:50am	Print Post
	Let me add this, regarding the LW. 1. If it's the 40/65 Win. and the small shank LW, you only have a wall thickness of .140, not much in my book but, 44 mag, revolvers have a simlar wall thickness. 2. Watch your brass for head seperation. If the breech block flexes, the case will stretch and the head will seperate. The flexing of the block can cause a crack, in the mortice. If that happens, I personally wouldn't shoot it and would rebarrel in a smaller caliber. I have a LW, cambered in 357 Max. I don't run Max pressures but, I have run it at close to 40,000 PSI, with both fixed and BSed, w/o problems. I did at least a 100 rounds at those kind of pressures but most of my shooting have been in the <30k psi range. It was a 357 Mag, when I got it and I do not know how many rounds went throught before I got it. ALSO, it's a original, re-bored, #2, octagon, 32 Long, Win barrel. Scary huh? Basic bolt thrust with my Max @ 40K = 4400 psi, @ 30k = 3300 psi. 40/65 @ 20k = 3900 psi. Frank

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11331 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #11 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:15am	Print Post
	Oprod wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:27pm: I ask because I'm in a bit of a quandary. I've bought a low wall in 40-65. It has been actively shot for 5-6 years and been to nationals twice. The action is tight and smooth. I asked the smith at the time he was making the gun, why a low wall and we discussed my reservations at the time. He pointed me to the pressures of the cartridge and those of the reciever and said with the new badger barrel, it would be fine. i was thinking the afore mentioned 38-55 was a higher pressure cartridge then the 40-65, so Mabry im alright? Which lowall do you have? Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15771 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #12 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:09am	Print Post
	I think the question of "why a Low wall" is simply answered. Because they're plentiful, and always much cheaper than a High Wall. Same reason many people choose a cast frame Ballard to build a .32-40 or .38-55 rifle. They're plentiful, and cheaper. I personally think you can get away with it on a Low wall, or a cast frame Ballard, but still wonder when or if it will decide to give at some point. I know a couple shooters who've shot a cast frame Ballard in a rifle cartridge for years, and think all the warnings are silly. So far they've proven my concern to be unfounded.

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art_ruggiero Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1061 Location: CT Joined: Dec 14^th, 2008	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #13 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:11pm	Print Post
	we only get two eyes and ten fingers. these are old actions_ or rifles who knows how much abuse they have seen in the past 100 years? best art


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11331 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: 40-65 in a low wall. Reply #14 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:18pm	Print Post
	Friend took off the tip of his thumb when he burst the barrel of his new Shiloh Sharps. He now has eight fingers and two and seven eighths thumbs. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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