I believe the lack of air space is why you don't see or have heard it mentioned in the Varmint calibers. Those were typically full case loads. The problems arise with the placement in the wad in relationship to the powder in reduced capacity loads. I will use the 32-40 case as an example. That case holds 40grs. of black powder, in our Schuetzen loads we are only using charges of 12-14 grains with the substantial remaining capacity being air.

Was the 'higher quality' vs 'lesser quality' that of coarseness of granulation, resistance to crumbling or something else?

JLouis wrote on Oct 30^th, 2012 at 9:08pm:


that defines it.  Thanks!

I posted this some time ago, but the experience was so unique i'll repeat it.  I was shooting a .40-70 straight (2 1/2") Axtell sharps using an unusually light 275gr. cast bullet & a powder I had never used before in this rifle..H4227..looking for an accurate light recoil load.
   I weighed out a two grain tuft of Kapok.  pulling it out to a cigar shape, longer than case, I gently inserted it into case mouth stuffing it in, & placing .03" veg. fiber wad flush in case mouth, bullet seating put final compress on filler.
   Firing 1st. round..recoil & report sounded normal..a hole appeared very low on 100yd. backer..normal with so light a start load.
   As is my habit, I blew thru bore for inspection..alot of powder fouling..also normal with light load.
Next shot felt same, with same report..another hole appeared low on backer..opening action..lots of blackish smoke..blowing thru failed to clear!
   running rod in, revealed an obstruction right at chamber end. I thought it was a bullet..even though there were two holes in backer..could one have already been there?
   I couldn't believe my eyes what came out the breech end of that barrel..the Kapok with the .030" fiber wad attatched looked for all the world like a shotgun fiber overpowder wad!  It was compressed to 3/8" height & .40 dia.
    I fired once more & this was normal..but I didn't fire any more & pulled those loads.
   A very careful check of rifle & chamber showed no damage.
   Now I wonder how did that Kapok wad end up at the breech end of a 34" long barrel AFTER the bullet had left bore?
   I have not loaded Kapok or any other filler in this rifle since.

Wow having the wad stay in the case is really odd 40 Rod, what size cork are you using. I have looked in vain for my cork wads for inspection  back when I was using them on numerous occasions and dang if I could find any. On one occasion during a CBA match with a predominant head wind the fellow next me was complaining about a fine dust blowing back in his face. Said it was coming from my rifle and asked what I was doing. I told him I was using a cork wad at the base of the bullet and he asked me to stop, so I did and it stopped. That prompted me to start looking for them as I thought they were going down range. 

J.Louis

CMM I highly recommend picking up Charlie's book, not a huge of amount of money by any means. Read all he has to say, look at his means and methods, those who assisted him, their credentials and then get back to us with any disagreements you might have to hash around. I do not have the time to type out the whole chapter on your behalf our where the subject it  mentioned in other chapters. My intent was to only share the means found not to ring a chamber in hopes it would keep a member here from doing so. From the outset you have tried to substantiate the testing was flawed, the people were flawed and basically the whole theory is flawed. All this ranting and raving being done while not having full knowledge of what is presented in the book nor paying any attention to what has been posted. The actual cause of the problem also outlined in the book was determined about 150 years ago by Paul Vieille. In regards to having minor in physics one of those involved in the tests is a rocket fuel engineer so one would think he had some minor knowledge in physics. Get the book, gain it's knowledge then come back and post what you think. Hopefully doing so with a more positive attitude when knowing all of the facts, in lieu of this string of continued assumptions while lacking all knowledge.

J.Louis

For those who have viewed this subject with an open mind and have found the contents interesting and useful who do not have a copy of Charlie's book I wanted to provide the following from another chapter that leads up to the chapter on Chamber Ringing. The intent is so you will become comfortable with the use of wads when knowing how to properly place them. 

Page 1
First of all let me put to rest the myth that ringed chambers are the product of wads placed on the powder. We do not know all of the answers at this time but we have confirmed the cause.The cause of the problem was first discovered by Paul Vielle in France almost 100 years ago. Veille was one of the developers of smokeless powders and an outstanding authority on explosives the accompanying shock waves and their properties and effect.
 
J.Louis

Mfg Eng. define the tools, machines and methods used to manufacture. I've never heard of a degree in mfg. eng., typically Mech Eng in my exp. Ind Engs, I'm one, deal with people methods, time required, work flow, plant layout, eqpt/plant purchase.
At least when/where I worked.
joe b.   

[quote 
  Manufacturing Engineers are almost synonymous with Industrial Engineers, they manage work flow, where to place the machines for efficiency, production statistics, robotics, loading dock heights, etc., etc.

  For the type of engineering necessary to solve this chamber ringing phenomenon, my choice would be a four year university educated mechanical engineer with a minor in physics. 

CMM
  [/quote]