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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Hi & Low wall questions (Read 13989 times)
Joe_S
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Hi & Low wall questions
Apr 11th, 2006 at 3:56pm
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I am thinking about getting a Schuetzen rifle for benchrest competition. I have seen some original Hi-walls around, One in particular chambered in 30-30 for about $900. I dont know what to look for when examining an original, can anyone help me out?  I also note there are some Italian imported low walls in 32-20 with double sets. Is 32-20 a good way to go?   Is it possible to get a serious benchrest rifle for $2,000 or less?  That is about the max I would want to invest at this point.I dont think I can get a US made replica in that price range.  I was also considering an imported Hi wall with double sets  and rebarrelling it to a schuetzen caliber.  I would strongly prefer to go with a Hi wall or low wall, import (Italian only) would be  OK if quality is there. Thanks, Joe S
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #1 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 8:16pm
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The .32-20 is a bit of a disadvantage for most 200 yd schuetzen matches. The original Winchesters will cost dearly for a good one, unless you find one in need of rework, and you might finish under your $2000 price tag.
Italian copies can be found in calibers suitable for schuetzen rifles, like a .38-55, and they sell for under $1,000, so again, you might finish under $2,000, but I'm not familiar with how accurate they might be, or which is the most accurate.
You might post a wanted ad here in the "for sale" section, and see if someone has anything suitable that they are ready to part with. Good used match rifles are usually the best buys around, and don't require any further modifications.
  
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leadball
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #2 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:00pm
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There's only rifle I know of that sells for $2000 or less that is competitive for benchrest shooting that is a CPA Stevens.CPA's can be bought in different calibers but the 32/40 -32 Miller Short are presently the most popular.
     IMO original barreled rifles are generally not competitive in benchrest shooting.   
      There are other really good benchrest rifles the De haas- Miller is one but. not for $2000.   leadball
  
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Joe_S
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #3 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:48pm
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Thanks for the replies,

  Assume that $2,000 is not enough to get a competitive benchrest rifle. Also assume that there is a limit to what I can/will spend. How much should I expect to pay for a competitive rifle? (not including mold, tools, etc) Thanks! Joe S
  
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red_stevens
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 12:17am
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Here was a post in the classifieds section from a couple of weeks ago.:
Ken Meyer has a SST Winchester Highwall in 32-40 with a Darr #6 barrel for sale. Call him at (231) 759-0592

A #6 Darr barrel is a great set up for bench shooting and Ken Meyer installed Darr barrel is great.  I have a 32-40 Ballard with a #4 Darr barrel that shoot 10 shot one hole groups from bench with a Unertl scope.  This rifle might just fill your needs if the price is right.
Red
  
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DonH
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 5:23am
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Ken Meyer no longer has the rifle. I went with a friend to pick it up and am presently helping him get set up to shoot it.

Don
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #6 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 8:40am
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I gotta go with leadball on this. The CPA is the only rifle that I can think of that will come in under 2,000. My advice would start with a barrel. I would go for a 1:12" twist or tighter for a .32. Chamber it for one of the smaller cases 32 X 357 Dell or the 32 Miller short. As for stock have it fit with the CPA benchrest stock in a heavy dense stright grain wood.  You may want to think about haveing the wood stableised. That will get you the gun.
Now it is time to buy a scope, decide on a front rest, rear bag, Powder sieves, powder measure, it never stops.
Welcome to the maddness.
40 Rod
  
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is0086s
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #7 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:01pm
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40-Rod:

Please expand on what you mean by "stabilizing" the stock. I'm not addressing the spelling - I don't remember hearing of stabilizing a stock before.

Thanks
  

Bob Ryan
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #8 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:03pm
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To make a standard Winchester 1885 Highwall in to a competitive Schuetzen rifle usually requires the following:

1. bush and convert to a Neidner firing pin
2. install crossbolt between tangs so a through bolt can be installed to stabilize the rear stock.
3. replace flat spring with a coil spring and skeltonize trigger to speed up lock time
4. install single or double set trigger
5. replace stock with offhand schuetzen style stock
6. rebarrel to .321 (32-40) and chamber to a gain twist 11.5 twist 32 schuetzen wildcat cartridge to shoot 230 grain bullets

Then add up the required modification costs and compare to purchase of a new Miller or CPA and then decide if it is what you would prefer to do. Been there done that. The Winchester has won many medals for herself though I eventually did go to a MIller. Still prefer to caress the Winchester though.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #9 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:09pm
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Winchester stocks are not as stiff as they need to be and vibrations can throw off your sweet spot you worked so hard to find by adjusting your powder load and seating depth.

A through bolt conversion pulls the wood tight up against the action so that it is stiffer and less prone to movement due to recoil.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #10 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:55pm
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Oops. 

3. should have read sketonize "hammer" (not trigger)
  
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Joe_S
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #11 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 12:16am
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Thanks everyone for your help.  I will be checking into the CPA rifles, although I would prefer a Hi Wall.  I was looking at various Hi Wall options, and noticed an Italian Hi Wall with double sets for around $1,000.  If I were to buy it, I believe I can rebarrel it with a match grade barrel  and put a new buttstock on for under $1,000.  Am I correct? Dont know about the firing pins on the imports, would have to check into that. Would any more work be required?   The Ballard Company Hi walls will cost over $3,000, so if the price starts to get over $2500 I might as well buy one of theirs, or an original action and put a new barrel and buttstock on. Correct? Thanks! Joe
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 8:07am
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Stabilizeing the wood is a process That Ken Hurst told me about. I am not sure how it is done but according to Ken when they are done the wood is denser and will not warp at all. I am thinking about sending a stock out to see how it works.

40 Rod
  
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gunsbrad
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 8:34am
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The Italian High Walls I own both have a Niedner type firing pin.

Brad Hurt
  
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #14 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 10:16am
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I do not think that #'s 1-5 of Schuetzendave's need to be done. As Joe is looking for a bench gun the only thing is a barrel.
1. bush and convert to a Neidner firing pin 
Many shooter myself included shoot with the original fireing pin it is not a major component for accuracy.

2. install crossbolt between tangs so a through bolt can be installed to stabilize the rear stock.
The Winchester stock is a ball and socket and is quite stable as it was designed and well bedded.
 
3. replace flat spring with a coil spring and skeltonize hammer to speed up lock time 
Have not seen any thing to show that the coil is faster but it may be.

4. install single or double set trigger 
The set trigger will make the lock time slower but I do like them.

5. replace stock with offhand schuetzen style stock 
Not needed for a bench gun. I do not shoot a bench stock as I only schuetzen style stocks. Yes they can be competitive off the bench but it is not easy.

6. rebarrel to .321 (32-40) and chamber to a gain twist 11.5 twist 32 schuetzen wildcat cartridge to shoot 230 grain bullets 
You will find many people shooting all sorts of cases. I like the bigger old cases but the new small cases do well but I do not like the pressures that they can generate with very small changes in powder charge. As to twist and bullet weight a long discussion would be interesting as almost every one has their faviroite.

fallingblock

  

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marlinguy
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #15 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 8:30pm
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Is it possible we're confusing someone's interest in starting out in Schuetzen, vs. really serious Schuetzen shooting?
I think it's possible to have fun, and get started without nemerous modifications or particular calibers. Now if it means you want to compete with the big boys, it may require all the right things, but it's not a requirement to start enjoying the game.
  
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Joe_S
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #16 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 9:13pm
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  I want a rifle capable of competing in benchrest with the " big boys",(I think I know who some of them are).  I have a BSA Mkl II and two Sharps rifles that I am satisfied with offhand and benchrest with the rimfire. But in centerfire benchrest the 1874 Sharps cannot compete with a high quality breechseated Schuetzen rifle.  If I buy another rifle, I want one that can put them all in the 25 ring at 200 yds.  I fully realize a lot of load development, technique, wind reading, etc, all goes into it. but I want to make sure the rifle is capable. The question is can it be done without spending $3,000 or more? Thanks for all your help! Joe
  
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #17 - Apr 14th, 2006 at 1:20am
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You can buy the CPA with unfinished wood for $2150. Finish the wood yourself and save several hundred dollars. Be sure and get the stock design that you need for the type shooting you are going to do.

These rifles are absolutely competitive.

Original single shot actions are getting more and more expensive. New ones cost even more.

Come on in, the water is FINE!! Grin

Dale53
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #18 - Apr 14th, 2006 at 10:52am
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Quote:
 I want a rifle capable of competing in benchrest with the " big boys",(I think I know who some of them are).   If I buy another rifle, I want one that can put them all in the 25 ring at 200 yds.  The question is can it be done without spending $3,000 or more? Thanks for all your help! Joe



~$2500 for the CPA rifle, ~$300 for the scope & mounts, ~$200 for the beginnings of the reloading equipment. This will get you within striking range but will not guarantee anything. Plan to spend MUCH more on such things as more moulds, more dies, barrels, reamers, special brass, more moulds, etc. not to mention different components and special reloading tools and just plain way-cool items. Did I mention more moulds?

You will find that entering competitive accuracy shooting is a lot like opening Pandora's Box or letting the Genie out of the bottle.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #19 - Apr 14th, 2006 at 11:32am
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The way I've approached several shooting sports is this;
Get a rifle that is "adeqate"... not "competitive at the top level", but "pretty good".  In other words, I buy what I can get my grubby little mits on in pretty short order for what I can afford.

Then practice getting ME up to snuff, and start collecting "all that other stuff", like JDSteele mentions... loading equipment, optics, moulds, and everything else. 

When I get good enough that my scores stop going up, and my groups stop getting smaller, the I look at either a rifle overhaul, or a new rifle.

So far, I've gotten bored with two sports before I had to spend the big bucks on "top level" equipment.   

I've just barely started Schutzen shooting (offhand), and my groups are still getting smaller...

Paul F.
  
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thornblom
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #20 - May 20th, 2006 at 2:56pm
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Hey Ya'll,

I want to get started in the schuetzen game, especially .22 rimfire.  I have a new winchester 1885 low wall in .22 lr with a 10 power B&L scope in Leupols mounts and rings.  I also have a Lyman 17A front sight and a Marbles tang sight for this rifle.  Would this be a good starter or should I stick with my custom t/c contender w/Bullbery match barrel and Leupold 4,5-14x scope.

Also, I have a custom .32-40 built on a C&H Armory highwall action with Douglas barrel.  I can switch the Leupold 4.5-14 from the contender if necessary.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom
  
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #21 - May 20th, 2006 at 9:33pm
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Take the time to visit one of the local matches if at all possible.  At EtnaGreen at least I have seen nice rifles ready to go, minus scopes being sold in our trading and swapping area for well under 2K.  Last year at Etna Green there was a nice looking CPA with both center fire and rimfire barrels blocks etc the went for under 2K.   IN additinal good sued scopes, reloading gear etc can oftern be found at very reasonalbe prices as guys upgrade, dispose of no longer needed gear, of occasionally are helping the widow of a deceased shooter dispose of his gear.


obviously there is no gurantee of what may or may not show up at a given event , but a few hundred bucks spent on travel expense can be a very good investment.
  

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thornblom
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #22 - May 28th, 2006 at 7:12pm
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Thanks for the invitation, but since I live in southern california, the range at etna green is more than a little out of my way.  For the time being I'll just go with the equipment I have now.  I seem to get through the matches with it OK and am no longer coming in at last place.  Better equipment is far off in the future as I am just starting out right now.

Dave (Bubba) Thornblom
  
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Re: Hi & Low wall questions
Reply #23 - May 29th, 2006 at 7:58am
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Thornblom, if you already have those two rifles and have found some matches to shoot, your first question seems a little strange...my suggestion would be to continue to shoot the CPA and low-wall at the matches, see what works for your there, and as you find additional accessories (and yes, additional guns) that you just can't do without, add them to your growing list of stuff you haul around.  Regardless, you ARE started in the schuetzen game whether you know it or not (didn't hurt a bit, did it?  Grin ) and now the only things you can do are keep reading this forum (along with all related literature you can lay your hands on) shoot every match you possibly can and get together with whichever fellow shooters are local (and you define local) and practice saying, "but darling, we NEED this rifle now and it's such a great deal...the rent can wait 'til next month."  There is NO cure, thornblum...you're hooked.

     As far as specific improvements to your equipment, the sky is the limit (for instance I would think about a rimfire barrel and block assembly for the CPA so I could take advantage or that fine trigger in both venues, but the low-wall can be given acceptable trigger performance a couple of ways.)  Other than that, just shoot as often as you can, keeping records of your sight settings in various wind conditions, etc.  If possible find someone at the matches you attend who you can practice with so you can encourage each other and critique problems...it will surprise you how quickly you will progress.   

     Finally, be sure and look over things like Competition Corner in the Journal as well as other sources of technique suggestions.  Try them in practice (or at matches if you must) and keep what works for you...we all have little "tricks" that we depend on, sometimes without even realizing it.  That's why the more we shoot and concentrate on what we are doing, the faster we progress.

HTH, I guess I got a little windy, but that's what I do!   Cheesy  Froggie
  
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