Does anyone know where I can find a firing pin?

DG

Dale53   

Thank you

I will check them out.

DG

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Hi

Your right but there is a difference in the retaining screw that secures it.

Incidently the firing pin and screw are on the way from The Ballard Co.

DG   Quote:

JD

Thanks very much for the information and it will be passed on to the gunsmith that now has the rifle. 

I should have stated in my inquiry that the rifle in question is a .22 RF with a # 3 barrel if that makes any difference in your suggestion.  It would seem the potential problems would be somewhat less dealing with a .22 RF but then again I have no experience with either.  My experience is mostly with Stevens rolling blocks for the most part.  I felt in this case taking it to a smith was the proper thing to do.  Any comments dealing with my rifle would be appreciated.

DG 

[quote author=JDSteele link=board=ssr;num=1139451178;start=0#5 date=02/09/06 at 18:44:56]I strongly suggest that you do two things to your new Ballard wall firing pin.

Do not take JD's suggestions lightly. It is common to have to "fit" firing pins to a particular rifle when dealing with single shots in general. I have personally witnessed firing pin failures the first time a new firing pin is used due to failure to "draw" the firing pin. 

JD, a really good post with details that should help anyone solve their now and future problems.

Dale53

JD

I have searched for the thread you mention and so far haven't found it.  Can you identify the thread concerning "Case-hardening"?

DG

[quote author=JDSteele link=board=ssr;num=1139451178;start=0#5 date=02/09/06 at 18:44:56]I strongly suggest that you do two things to your new Ballard wall firing pin.

First thoroughly anneal it, please see the thread on case-hardening for suggestions on annealing. Excessive hardness is one of the primary causes of broken firing pins & Ballard pins are known for their breakage.

JD

Thanks for the info.  Now if I can just get my smith to read your suggestions.  You know how smiths are, sometimes they take adivce rather reluctantly.

DG 

that should have been "excessive" damn fat fingers

Gary

I got to thinkin' about this (I know, I know.............) & decided to add some more info FWIW.

I'm a particular fan of wall RFs and have examined a lot of 'em & built a fair number also. It's my experience that the dimensions of the 22RF extractors can vary quite widely and so can cause problems in some cases. Remember, the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

All the original 22RF extractors that I personally have ever examined have shown signs of filing on the front face, across the face where it sits against the face of the breechblock when the action is closed. Not only that, I've also seen wide variations in the depth of the rim cut, the overall thickness of the extractor and the thickness remaining under the rim cut. This sometimes has caused me problems until things were sorted out, and it means that frequently the 22RF extractors won't interchange properly. And remember, the wall 22RF headspaces upon the extractor.

It's my theory that all 22RF extractors were originally fit to their individual rifles by filing the face until the breechblock would close. Just my theory, nothing concrete to base it upon except observation and measurement of several dozen original rifles.

Regardless, I suggest that you examine your new extractor's dimensions and how they match the rifle. For instance I've found original extractors with rim cut depths of as little as 0.035" and as much as 0.075", have also seen overall thicknesses vary by close to 0.100"; with this sort of variation it's mighty difficult for parts to interchange and operate properly. And remember, the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

So please have your smith read this, and if he has questions I'll be happy to go into it in more (MUCH more, if he wants) detail in a telecon. And then I'm gonna remind him that the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

There's also sometimes a problem with the case wall splitting at the top of the extractor cut, but this a problem for another thread.
Good luck, Joe

Please see my additional response in the Gunsmithing section, still more info, regards, Joe

Mr. SMoke:

There are a number of things that could be causing you this grief. Since you take such good pictures, could you post one of a mis-fired case head? We could tell something from the firing pin mark.

You can get a feel for the head space by inserting a case and feeling how far below flush it goes, and then seeing how much space is between the barrel and the breech block when the action is closed. Not precise but you should be able to tell if there is enough to cause ignition problems.

Glenn

DG, you got trouble. Not bad trouble, but trouble nevertheless. It appears to me, from looking at the pictures and reading your words, that your rifle does indeed have a lot of excessive headspace. According to my understanding, the rifle could have as much as 0.040"-0.050" excessive headspace in addition to the nominal rim thickness dimension of 0.042"-0.044". Please see my information (on adjusting the wall RF headspace and extractor shape) that's posted in the Gunsmithing section.

Also it appears to me that your firing pin is hitting entirely too low, ENTIRELY too low. AAMOF I've never seen a 22RF wall strike that low, not even close to that low. I wonder if someone hasn't substituted a 25RF or 32RF block for the original 22RF one. Are there any numbers stamped in the side of the block, down inside where they're not visible unless disassembled?

A somewhat less-serious version of this striking-low condition is relatively common with some walls and can usually be corrected or at least greatly alleviated  by bending the finger lever to remove most of the overtravel built into the wall's toggle linkage. Bending the lever will raise the strike of the firing pin by ~0.015", which may not be enough but is better than a sharp stick in the eye (VBG).

If you've been an ASSRA member for a few years, you may remember that the Journal published a pair of articles (mine) a few years ago that dealt with this over-center toggle linkage issue in the wall rifles. Also, Frank de Haas has published some good info on the same subject in his books Single Shot Rifles and Actions and Mr. Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book. Please feel free to call me (both you and/or your smith) if you have further questions. I figure you will.

If you have a substituted 32RF block, you may also need a longer link to raise the strike even more. I believe longer links are available from Ballard 'cause I've seen a Ballard link with a dimension on it; why put one dimension if there aren't some more dimensions to differentiate from?
Like I said, feel free to call, good luck, Joe
601  924  3191

Well, late again...

Anyway, what Mr. Steele said.

Glenn

Please see "1885 22 rimfire case splitting", I'll paste my reply below. The thread is about splitting, but the solution is exactly the same as for excessive headspace.

<<Gary, the wall RF extractor fingers extend up slightly higher than the centerline of the chamber, so that the next cartridge to be chambered cannot (we hope) slip into the chamber past the fingers and thereby jam the rifle. When the extractor is in the 'open' or 'extracted' position, the extractor fingers have pivoted so far to the rear that their tops have dropped down a significant distance, often enough so that the next cartridge rim can slip past them if they weren't longer than the normal CF extractor fingers. The extra length and double fingers ensure that the next cartridge is held by the fingers and can't slip forward into the chamber ahead of them. 
 
However this extra length means that, if the inside of the extractor fingers were cut to follow the chamber's edge exactly, then the tops of the fingers would neck down slightly (come closer together) at the section where they rise up beyond the chamber's centerline. Well, when the extractor pivots to the rear to extract the case, then the tips of the fingers will start to move downward slightly as they move to the rear since their pivot point is now somewhat forward, under the rear of the chamber. 
 
As the extractor ends move downward, if the tips are closer together than the sides then they will grab the case and prevent it from extracting freely. Accordingly, the extractor fingertips are not cut to follow the chamber's edge precisely at the portion that falls above the chamber centerline, they have a slight clearance there. If you'll examine an original extractor closely, you'll see that the extractor fingers actually are cut so that they are parallel to one another in the portions above the chamber centerline, and many of them actually have a small chamfer at their tips. 
 
The parallel places and especially the chamfers mean that the cartridge case is somewhat unsupported in two spots, the places at the tops of the fingers where they must become parallel in order to clear the case walls upon extraction. Well, sometimes the original extractors are a little small at these points and so they allow enough clearance for the case to expand significantly and sometimes blow out. 
 
It's my practice to try to eliminate this as much as possible, of course, and I normally do it when I'm checking and adjusting the extractor's headspace dimensions. I first cut the face of the extractor back until the rim depth is ~0.035"-0.040", no more, then fit the extractor to the rifle by adjusting the overall extractor thickness. 
 
To decrease the thickness it's easy to grind or file it thinner, but normally on an existing rifle it will be necessary to go in the opposite direction and make it slightly thicker in order to get a snug fit and minimum headspace. I usually do this by silver-soldering although I have used epoxy or Black Max on occasion. 
 
I thin the rear of the extractor until I have enough room for a thin shim of steel behind it, extending across the entire rear face of the extractor and connecting both fingers across the chamber, then I attach it (as I say, I prefer silver-solder). After the adhesive has cured or the solder has cooled, then I gradually thin the rear of the shim until the breechblock will just barely close. At this point the extractor thickness is just right but there's still a portion of the shim blocking the chamber. 
 
I remove the extractor and use needle files to take out most of the part of the shim that blocks the chamber, but I don't  remove it all just yet. I take it down almost to the edge of the chamber, then reinstall the extractor in the rifle and use the chamber reamer to make the final cut on the extractor's inner curve at the chamber's edge. 
 
A cartridge will now chamber but the headspace is now too tight (remember the 0.035"-0.040" dimension above?) and so the block won't quite close on it yet. I use the chamber reamer to gradually deepen the chamber until I can close the block on an unfired case against some resistance. The headspace is now about as good as I can make it. Now I remove the extractor, cut the parallels on the top insides of the fingers and smooth & polish everything, especially the upper inside ends of the fingers, to ensure that they release the case freely upon extraction. 
 
The silver-solder or epoxy will always collect in the corners where the shim meets the edge of the fingers, and this extra material is very useful in making sure that the little unsupported spaces are filled in as much as possible. Frequently the factory-dimensioned fingers don't meet the chamber's edge but the extra attaching material helps greatly in filling any small gaps. 
 
There's no way to get rid of all the gap, and the slight bulge under the case rim is somewhat unsightly, but it can be greatly minimized by following this procedure.>>


HTH, please ask if you have any questions, regards, Joe

Smoke- replace the pins!  It also appears evident that the cartridge is sitting well below the rear of the barrel and the extractor- you may need to set it back a turn and have it rechambered properly. At 16 TPI that will be .0625 of setback, plenty to clean it up. A new link MAY help too, but will not correct the headspace issue as I see it.

Slot the mainspring screw hole toward the receiver, so as to allow the spring to move forward in relation to the new position of its mounting hole. Then either shorten the forearm from the rear or make a new forearm mounting stud to space the mounting position forward. There are other ways but these are the simplest IMO.

I'd be inclined to reline the bbl.
Regards, Joe

Thanks for the update Don! good luck!
Vall

Don- not clear on this- is it tight without a shell in the chamber?

Singleshot

I know its been a while but we had a medical emergency and as you know time goes by.

I did go to the range and had several mis-fires. A friend was there and he gave me several rounds of Russian match ammo that shot consistantly.  I checked and found the rims seemed to be thicker than the rest of the ammo I had with me. Excessive head space started ringing in my head again.

I went home disassemled the rifle and drilled out the lower toggle pin that I couldn't remove before by using progressive bigger drills so as not to touch the bore.  When I finally  was able to get the pin out I discovered it was in two pieces.  In other words it didn't make any difference which way I tried to punch it the piece being punched was hitting a solid shoulder.

I installed a new pin from The Ballard Rifle Co. and reassembled the rifle. The block raised approximately 1/16" in the rear and stayed aapproximately at the same level in front where it mates with the barrel.  Now it is very tight indeed but the action now is smoothe as butter.  The excessive head space issue still exists.  I can close the action with a .019 piece of brass shim stock between the block and barrel, the firing pin then protrudes out of back of the breech block about .035-.040.  I can release the hammer and get a very nice indentation on the brass shim stock.

I believe I am going to have the barrel set back 1 turn and have the head space adjusted correctly.  Shoot it for a while and if accuracy is poor then reline it for long rifle with the correct twist.

I would never have believed worn pins could ever caused problems like this.  The one thing that still has me mistified is how in the world did the head space ever get so far off???  The extractor nor barrel appears to have been modified in any way.

DG
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