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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Winchester M-1885 low wall (Read 25130 times)
horsefly
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #15 - Feb 13th, 2006 at 9:08am
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Good morning, Folks;

The case hardening thread is in the gunsmithing section.

Y'all be good.

horsefly
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #16 - Feb 13th, 2006 at 6:17pm
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I got to thinkin' about this (I know, I know.............) & decided to add some more info FWIW.

I'm a particular fan of wall RFs and have examined a lot of 'em & built a fair number also. It's my experience that the dimensions of the 22RF extractors can vary quite widely and so can cause problems in some cases. Remember, the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

All the original 22RF extractors that I personally have ever examined have shown signs of filing on the front face, across the face where it sits against the face of the breechblock when the action is closed. Not only that, I've also seen wide variations in the depth of the rim cut, the overall thickness of the extractor and the thickness remaining under the rim cut. This sometimes has caused me problems until things were sorted out, and it means that frequently the 22RF extractors won't interchange properly. And remember, the wall 22RF headspaces upon the extractor.

It's my theory that all 22RF extractors were originally fit to their individual rifles by filing the face until the breechblock would close. Just my theory, nothing concrete to base it upon except observation and measurement of several dozen original rifles.

Regardless, I suggest that you examine your new extractor's dimensions and how they match the rifle. For instance I've found original extractors with rim cut depths of as little as 0.035" and as much as 0.075", have also seen overall thicknesses vary by close to 0.100"; with this sort of variation it's mighty difficult for parts to interchange and operate properly. And remember, the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

So please have your smith read this, and if he has questions I'll be happy to go into it in more (MUCH more, if he wants) detail in a telecon. And then I'm gonna remind him that the wall RF headspaces upon the extractor.

There's also sometimes a problem with the case wall splitting at the top of the extractor cut, but this a problem for another thread.
Good luck, Joe
  
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smoke810
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #17 - Feb 13th, 2006 at 7:04pm
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JD

I talked with my smith today and relayed the jest of of your suggestions concerning the Brinel hardness of the firing pins secured from the Ballard Rifle Co. as well as the dimensions of protrusion of the pin from the face of the block.  He was cognisant of the dimensions you suggested.  I gave him the web address of this forum and he was receptive to log in and read this thread.  I have every reason to believe he will make an appearance.

Again I appreciate your time and trouble to give us you feedback on a potential problem.

DG [quote author=JDSteele link=board=ssr;num=1139451178;start=15#16 date=02/13/06 at 18:17:28]I got to thinkin' about this (I know, I know.............) & decided to add some more info FWIW.

  
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JDSteele
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #18 - Feb 14th, 2006 at 2:33pm
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Please see my additional response in the Gunsmithing section, still more info, regards, Joe
  
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smoke810
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #19 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 1:25pm
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Well I recieved my rifle back and  Angry!.  It still will not fire.  I called the smith and was told he fired several "Shorts" in it.  I have been doing some experimenting and have an opinion or two and need an opinion or two from someone on this board to agree of disagree.  I am doing the following using fired long rifle cases that chamber perfectly in the chamber which leads me to believe the rifle probably has been chambered for long rifles in spite of being marked .22 Shorts on the barrel.

1. After cocking the rifle, you can push the firing pin a thousands or two beyound flush into the block with your finger.

2. I can take a 3/16" x 36" dowell, insert it into the muzzle and push the fired case against the face of the block and move the firing pin approximately .040 -.050 out of the block.

This leads me to believe there is excessive head space!!.  Further I notice the firing pin is hitting the extractor and preventing the proper indentation to fire the round. (See photos).  I then inserted a cleaning rod in the muzzle and sat it on the concrete floor to hold a back up on the case in the chamber and released the hammer and obtained a fair indentation on the case but not as deep as I would like to see.

I think the firing pin could be relieved on the bottom slightly and obtain clearance to get a good strike but am not sure if this is the answer.  The head space issue concerns me.  Your opinions please!!

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DG
« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2006 at 1:36pm by smoke810 »  
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hst
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #20 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 3:15pm
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Mr. SMoke:

There are a number of things that could be causing you this grief. Since you take such good pictures, could you post one of a mis-fired case head? We could tell something from the firing pin mark.

You can get a feel for the head space by inserting a case and feeling how far below flush it goes, and then seeing how much space is between the barrel and the breech block when the action is closed. Not precise but you should be able to tell if there is enough to cause ignition problems.

Glenn
  
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smoke810
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #21 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 4:30pm
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Hst

To keep from posting pictures to this thread, please go to (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) and look in Album # 4.  I have disassembled the rifle and relieved the firing pin on the bottom a little and now am getting a shallow half-moon strike that may let the rifle fire.  I am going to the range tomorrow and will post the results.

Looking at the two fired rounds, the one on left is what I was getting until I relieved the bottom of the pin.  The one on the right is what I am getting now.

I measured how far the case seated into the extractor and as near as I can tell it's .023, see the photos of the depth gauge and the feeler gauge I used to estimate.

I can get a .020 feeler gauge between the block and the barrel when the rifle is cocked and ready to fire with a fired case in the chamber.

DG
Quote:
Mr. SMoke:

There are a number of things that could be causing you this grief. Since you take such good pictures, could you post one of a mis-fired case head? We could tell something from the firing pin mark.

You can get a feel for the head space by inserting a case and feeling how far below flush it goes, and then seeing how much space is between the barrel and the breech block when the action is closed. Not precise but you should be able to tell if there is enough to cause ignition problems.

Glenn

  
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JDSteele
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #22 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 5:41pm
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DG, you got trouble. Not bad trouble, but trouble nevertheless. It appears to me, from looking at the pictures and reading your words, that your rifle does indeed have a lot of excessive headspace. According to my understanding, the rifle could have as much as 0.040"-0.050" excessive headspace in addition to the nominal rim thickness dimension of 0.042"-0.044". Please see my information (on adjusting the wall RF headspace and extractor shape) that's posted in the Gunsmithing section.

Also it appears to me that your firing pin is hitting entirely too low, ENTIRELY too low. AAMOF I've never seen a 22RF wall strike that low, not even close to that low. I wonder if someone hasn't substituted a 25RF or 32RF block for the original 22RF one. Are there any numbers stamped in the side of the block, down inside where they're not visible unless disassembled?

A somewhat less-serious version of this striking-low condition is relatively common with some walls and can usually be corrected or at least greatly alleviated  by bending the finger lever to remove most of the overtravel built into the wall's toggle linkage. Bending the lever will raise the strike of the firing pin by ~0.015", which may not be enough but is better than a sharp stick in the eye (VBG).

If you've been an ASSRA member for a few years, you may remember that the Journal published a pair of articles (mine) a few years ago that dealt with this over-center toggle linkage issue in the wall rifles. Also, Frank de Haas has published some good info on the same subject in his books Single Shot Rifles and Actions and Mr. Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book. Please feel free to call me (both you and/or your smith) if you have further questions. I figure you will.

If you have a substituted 32RF block, you may also need a longer link to raise the strike even more. I believe longer links are available from Ballard 'cause I've seen a Ballard link with a dimension on it; why put one dimension if there aren't some more dimensions to differentiate from?
Like I said, feel free to call, good luck, Joe
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hst
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #23 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 5:53pm
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Mr. Smoke:

Your rifle has "issues".

One thing that will help is a new action link, the link between the lever and the block, with a longer hole spacing. This will raise the position of the block and move everything in a positive direction. It will  move the firing pin up so it for sure will clear the extractor, and will put the bottom edge of the pin on the rim of the case. This will be the part of the firing pin tip that protrudes the farthest.

Because of the angle of the block mortise, moving the block up also moves it forward, reducing the excessive headspace. It will not make everything all better, but it may well be enough to make everything work.

Glenn
  
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hst
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #24 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 6:00pm
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Well, late again...

Anyway, what Mr. Steele said.

Glenn
  
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smoke810
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #25 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 7:44pm
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I am going to call The Ballard Co. tomorrow and see if they have a "Action Link".  After reading the comments by Mr Steele and yourself, and my attempts at measuring things it seems the logical problem is a block has been substituted for the original.  The more I look at this thing, a block for a .25RF would explain where the pin is hitting the extractor.

This rifle was quoted as being in good working order but that doesn't seem to be correct.  I am wondering now if replacing the action link will solve one problem and only create something else that will need to be addressed??

I am going to disassemble the rifle again and look for any numbers of any kind stamped in the block.

JDSteele  I have looked all through the "Gunsmith" section and can't your post "Adjusting the head space on a LW"

DG

[quote author=hst link=board=ssr;num=1139451178;start=15#23 date=03/02/06 at 17:53:38]Mr. Smoke:

Your rifle has "issues".

« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2006 at 8:07pm by smoke810 »  
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JDSteele
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #26 - Mar 2nd, 2006 at 8:23pm
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Please see "1885 22 rimfire case splitting", I'll paste my reply below. The thread is about splitting, but the solution is exactly the same as for excessive headspace.

<<Gary, the wall RF extractor fingers extend up slightly higher than the centerline of the chamber, so that the next cartridge to be chambered cannot (we hope) slip into the chamber past the fingers and thereby jam the rifle. When the extractor is in the 'open' or 'extracted' position, the extractor fingers have pivoted so far to the rear that their tops have dropped down a significant distance, often enough so that the next cartridge rim can slip past them if they weren't longer than the normal CF extractor fingers. The extra length and double fingers ensure that the next cartridge is held by the fingers and can't slip forward into the chamber ahead of them. 
 
However this extra length means that, if the inside of the extractor fingers were cut to follow the chamber's edge exactly, then the tops of the fingers would neck down slightly (come closer together) at the section where they rise up beyond the chamber's centerline. Well, when the extractor pivots to the rear to extract the case, then the tips of the fingers will start to move downward slightly as they move to the rear since their pivot point is now somewhat forward, under the rear of the chamber. 
 
As the extractor ends move downward, if the tips are closer together than the sides then they will grab the case and prevent it from extracting freely. Accordingly, the extractor fingertips are not cut to follow the chamber's edge precisely at the portion that falls above the chamber centerline, they have a slight clearance there. If you'll examine an original extractor closely, you'll see that the extractor fingers actually are cut so that they are parallel to one another in the portions above the chamber centerline, and many of them actually have a small chamfer at their tips. 
 
The parallel places and especially the chamfers mean that the cartridge case is somewhat unsupported in two spots, the places at the tops of the fingers where they must become parallel in order to clear the case walls upon extraction. Well, sometimes the original extractors are a little small at these points and so they allow enough clearance for the case to expand significantly and sometimes blow out. 
 
It's my practice to try to eliminate this as much as possible, of course, and I normally do it when I'm checking and adjusting the extractor's headspace dimensions. I first cut the face of the extractor back until the rim depth is ~0.035"-0.040", no more, then fit the extractor to the rifle by adjusting the overall extractor thickness. 
 
To decrease the thickness it's easy to grind or file it thinner, but normally on an existing rifle it will be necessary to go in the opposite direction and make it slightly thicker in order to get a snug fit and minimum headspace. I usually do this by silver-soldering although I have used epoxy or Black Max on occasion. 
 
I thin the rear of the extractor until I have enough room for a thin shim of steel behind it, extending across the entire rear face of the extractor and connecting both fingers across the chamber, then I attach it (as I say, I prefer silver-solder). After the adhesive has cured or the solder has cooled, then I gradually thin the rear of the shim until the breechblock will just barely close. At this point the extractor thickness is just right but there's still a portion of the shim blocking the chamber. 
 
I remove the extractor and use needle files to take out most of the part of the shim that blocks the chamber, but I don't  remove it all just yet. I take it down almost to the edge of the chamber, then reinstall the extractor in the rifle and use the chamber reamer to make the final cut on the extractor's inner curve at the chamber's edge. 
 
A cartridge will now chamber but the headspace is now too tight (remember the 0.035"-0.040" dimension above?) and so the block won't quite close on it yet. I use the chamber reamer to gradually deepen the chamber until I can close the block on an unfired case against some resistance. The headspace is now about as good as I can make it. Now I remove the extractor, cut the parallels on the top insides of the fingers and smooth & polish everything, especially the upper inside ends of the fingers, to ensure that they release the case freely upon extraction. 
 
The silver-solder or epoxy will always collect in the corners where the shim meets the edge of the fingers, and this extra material is very useful in making sure that the little unsupported spaces are filled in as much as possible. Frequently the factory-dimensioned fingers don't meet the chamber's edge but the extra attaching material helps greatly in filling any small gaps. 
 
There's no way to get rid of all the gap, and the slight bulge under the case rim is somewhat unsightly, but it can be greatly minimized by following this procedure.>>


HTH, please ask if you have any questions, regards, Joe
  
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smoke810
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #27 - Mar 4th, 2006 at 6:45pm
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I dissasemled the rifle again and found "22" stamped in the side of the breechblock.  I assume this means its a .22 block.  I did notice when inspecting the lever pin, I found it worn and not round at all.  Also the pins between the breechblock, finger lever and action link also are somewhat "Sloppy".  I think if these pins were replaced it may raise the block slightly and may allow the firing pin to miss the extractor.  Any comments???

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DG
« Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2006 at 7:45pm by smoke810 »  
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singleshot
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #28 - Mar 4th, 2006 at 10:44pm
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Smoke- replace the pins!  It also appears evident that the cartridge is sitting well below the rear of the barrel and the extractor- you may need to set it back a turn and have it rechambered properly. At 16 TPI that will be .0625 of setback, plenty to clean it up. A new link MAY help too, but will not correct the headspace issue as I see it.
  

Willis Gregory, aka singleshot
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Brent
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Re: Winchester M-1885 low wall
Reply #29 - Mar 5th, 2006 at 10:15am
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Smoke- replace the pins!  It also appears evident that the cartridge is sitting well below the rear of the barrel and the extractor- you may need to set it back a turn and have it rechambered properly. At 16 TPI that will be .0625 of setback, plenty to clean it up. A new link MAY help too, but will not correct the headspace issue as I see it.


When you set back a barrel like this, how do you deal with the forearm and lever screws?   

Brent

  
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