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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Action recommendation? (Read 34266 times)
Old_Dog
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Action recommendation?
Sep 6th, 2005 at 2:35pm
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I have hunted for many years now, but only flirted with single shots before.  I've had the odd #1 and a Browning low wall, and even a Model 10 for a while.  Now I've decided to get serious with a tackdriving single shot for deer hunting.  It will be used far and wide, from stands and while stalking, and should finish under 10 pounds. It will be from .257 to .284 caliber.  It will be used from 10 yards to 350 yards and I would like it to shoot into .5 MOA.  I know that's a tall order but I like to aim high.  Money is not an object if the increased price is justified by increased performance.  Let's try to keep this in the mid to lower 4 figure range.  Oh, and it has to be special, too.  No Rugers, NEFs, Marlins etc. need apply.  Now to specific questions:

1) Does this gun exist right out of the box? Where?
2) If it doesn't, what gunsmith do I want to put it together for me?  This probably depends on the other choices I make, but I would really like this rifle to put rounds on top of each other.
3) Any recommendation for the action?  I like the looks of the old 1885 HiWall if it would be appropriate.  Is there a better action for my purpose?
4) What can someone expect to pay for an original HiWall rifle or action?  Is it appropriate for modern high intensity cartridges?  Is there anything in particular to look for?
5) Any recommendations, given my other criteria, for a caliber choice?

I know that's a lot of questions but the only thing I like better than shooting guns is talking about them.  I'm probably going to drop a pretty penny for this and I would like the most input from informed and experienced shooters that I can get.  Thanks, guys.

Jim
  
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ken_hurst
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #1 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 4:40pm
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You can get a new highwall action from C.Sharps Co. or from ???? (come on guys, help me out --Brain f##t). There is also an excelent bbl/action from Borchardt Rifle Co. in Silver City, N.M. or if you would like a side hammer action, there is the Wesson #1 action from Steve Earle -- see action on this site.   Ken
  
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hst
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #2 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 8:28pm
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Mr. Old Dog:

While I applaud your desire for a hunting single shot, I don't think you are going to find anyone who is going to guarantee you .5 MOA. 

If you want an external hammer action, the Winchester would be a good choice, as would a Stevens 44-1/2. Both are strong enough for what you seem to have in mind. The Winchester comes to full cock when closed, which I would think an advantage in a hunting rifle. I think that the Stevens can be made to do the same. The Wesson that Mr. Earle is making is a wonderful action and is certainly worth consideration.

In a hammerless action the Borchardt might be a good choice.  Or perhaps a Martini.

You would be best served to have the rifle chambered for a rimmed case. There are a number of candidates in rimmed cases for the .25 to 28 caliber range.

Do you want a set trigger?

Glenn


  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #3 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 8:55pm
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Sounds to me like something on the order of a .25 Krag Improved, in a Winchester Single Shot action, set triggers, and about a #3 weight barrel.  I'm sure Ballard Rifle Company can fix you right up, in whatever degree of finish, and extra cost options, that your heart desires.

Just might have to wait a bit while they build it, but that'll be the case anyway if you have one built from scratch.

Greg
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #4 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 9:47pm
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First Shirt took the words right off my keyboard!  If you want to go with a purely traditional cartridge in that range and for the performance you are seeking, you might also look at the .25-35, a classic Winchester number that is basically a necked down .32-40 round.  With a new and purpose built rifle you can specify a fast enough twist to get a longer, heavier bullet to stabilize.  The strength of the high-wall is the stuff legends are made of and from what I have seen of the Ballard Rifle Co repros, they would be hard to beat.  You might also look at the Meacham (coil spring) high-wall repro, or if you want something more exotic you might have Al Story build you a Borchardt or you might have something built from scratch on Steve Earle's new Wesson action.  All of these would be within a range of about $2-5000, depending on a range of choices you would make, but realistically I would guesstimate that you will hit at least the mid threes to get anything satisfactory within the criteria you have set forth.

HTH, the Green Frog

PS  I would advise AGAINST using originals of any of these actions for this project, not because they wouldn't be good but because you would have to pay so much to get a good one that you would be satisfied to build on.  I consider myself lucky to find a $500 BEATER of a high-wall action, for example.   Undecided
  
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Ray_Newman
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #5 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 11:10pm
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Green Frog: if you found a $500 beater M1885 action, I think you’d be lucky. And you’d need a body guard. Up here, they are scarce & ‘spensive’.

I echo your comments about finding a gfood one to build on. Then when you figure in the materials & having someone do the work if you can't do it yourself, "rebuilding " an original adds up very quick. If you're not careful, it can easily exceed the price of a new/reproduction rifle. Every time I look @ & contemplate a rifle built on my #5RB action, I feel the $$ leaving my bank acc't....
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #6 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 11:11pm
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I'm not certain that there are any traditional single shot calibers that will give you the accuracy and performance you're looking for to 350 yds. 
I would agree with the Borchardt or Win. Hi Wall actions, but you might need to go to a hotter caliber to acheive the kind of range you're looking for, and still have acceptable knockdown power at that 350 yd range, in a .25-28 caliber.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 12:39am
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From what I can gather from your initial post, your two prime criteria are deer-killing power out to 350 yds and tack-driving accuracy. A unique action and quality appearance are also on your list but maybe not quite as important as the performance?

In any case I would not suggest an original or original-style Winchester or Stevens action. I know I'll take some heat for this but that's my opinion, based on lack of guaranteed accuracy potential. Mainly lack of a drawbolt on the buttstock, which means a less-rigid platform. Some of the high wall repros such as Ballard or Meacham can be had with a drawbolt & they have a reasonable accuracy potential because of it IMO.

I've seen a couple of test articles on Ballard & Meacham rifles built on their high wall actions, and they appeared to shoot very well according to the writers. I say again, "according to the writers" they shot well, but, even according to the writers, none of them approached .5 MOA.

One of my shooting buds has a Miller-de Haas light rifle in 225 Winchester, built in its entirety by Kyle Miller about 8 yrs ago. Weighs about 9 lbs including scope & will shoot into about .5-.75 MOA after some tuning by the owner. Cost over $4000 (before optics) about 8 yrs ago and is built on an ugly action but is the best-shooting single shot of my somewhat limited experience, only about 4 dozen over the years so far.

Out of about 2 dozen Winchester high/low walls so far, my best shooter (223 Rem reline) will do about .75 MOA on average.

Col Whelen said that the most accurate of his many single shots was a custom Sharps Borchardt varminter. One of my Borchardts is extremely accurate (17 lbs) but it won't do .5 MOA on a guaranteed basis.

So I guess what I'm saying is that maybe your accuracy requirement is a little far out there for a single shot sporter.

To kill deer reliably & humanely at 350 yds requires a flat-shooting cartridge with reasonable bullet weight, IMO nothing less than 115 grains & no less than 2800 fps. I chose these numbers specifically to exclude almost all of the 6mm-&-smaller calibers, because in my experience they aren't good killers on deer at long range unless with head shots. This isn't the forum for a caliber argument but I can say that my opinion is based upon extensive shooting of several hundred whitetail deer at ranges from 20 yds to 600 yds with several rifles. The 243 Winchester M70 bull gun soon got rechambered to 6mm-284 and matters improved noticably. The 25-06 was noticably better still, and the 7mm Mag was the best of all those tried.

One of the very best single shot (read rimmed) rifle cartridges for your purpose is the 7x65R. It's basically a rimmed 280 Remington although they're not interchangeable. Another good choice would be the 30R Blaser, although it's certainly more powerful than necessary & so would be less pleasant to shoot. There are also other high-velocity European rimmed cartridges in the 6.5-7mm family that would be almost perfect for you, but ammo might be a problem unless you handload.

I emphasize high velocity, at least 2800 fps muzzle velocity, because you intend to shoot out to 350 yds. I consider that to be the maximum range for the very good rifle shot, and very few hunters are also very good rifle shots, OR good range estimators for that matter, so a flat trajectory is a must. My personal rule is, if I hafta aim over the deer's back then he's too far unless I've gotten a clear reading on my laser rangefinder & also have had time to figure the exact holdover. How many times does this happen?

My other personal rule is, when I pull the trigger I want to see feet in the air. No running off, no havng to wait 30 min & trail him up, no second shot required, no 'behind the shoulder' shots, no lost game at all, period. So I tend to use enough gun so that the animal dies instantly or as close to it as possible.

Of course we have a lotta deer down here, they're sometimes considered more of a dangerous nuisance than a big-game animal. I could tell you stories...........

My personal choice would be a Hagn action built by Edd Webber to the same specs as his 30-06 Hagn shown in Steve Hughes' outstanding book Custom Rifles in Black and White. This rifle is just about perfect IMO but I'd like it in either 7x65R or one of the hot 6.5 mms, with a scope of course.

It's my understanding that the Hagn action alone starts around $4000, so a nice rifle would cost at least $8000 IMO. Wish I had the money. I consider the Hagn action to be the most aesthetically-pleasing of them all, when built by a genuine artist such as Webber. MUCH better and better-looking than either the Ruger or especially the M10 IMO.

Now let me brace for the flames, 'cause I KNOW they're out there!
Good luck on your quest, Joe
  
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Ray_Newman
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #8 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 12:54am
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Joe: you raise some very valid points. The MOA shooting ability out to 350 yds does sound a little too unrealistic, unless as you stated, you spend The Really BIG $....
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #9 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 9:30am
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I'm going to stick in one more sugestion the Little Sharps. It is a slightly smaller version of the origional Sharps. I know that it has been chambered for 30-40 Kraig. It would make a neat deer rifle and be light enough to carry in the woods.

40 Rod
  
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ssdave
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #10 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 10:21am
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I'm going to stick in a plug for a lower dollar rifle.

The off the shelf product that comes closest to what you want is the browning 1885.  The .5 moa is achievable by some of these, but not all.  I have a .223 high wall that will do this with select ammo.  My .45-70 will not quite, but will come close.  I had a .25-06, and it would only do 1.25 moa, although arguably I didn't have the right ammo loaded for it.

I know that the browning comes in 7mm mag.  It would be quite flat shooting out to 350 yards, but I doubt it would do .5 moa.  It also comes in .30-06, and I'm not sure if it comes in .270.

I would recommend acquiring one in .30-06, and rebarreling with a lilja 270 barrel.  I think that this would come very close to .5 moa, and lilja  will match the original octagon barrel contour.  Or, as Joe suggested, go with a 6.5 mm caliber since you're going custom anyway.   

A good .30-06 will run about $900, a lilja barrel $400, and the gunsmithing about $400.  The wood on these is superb, and the actions are smooth and reliable.  They handle very well in the woods, and weigh in at about 7 or 8 pounds.

Good luck!
dave
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #11 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 1:21pm
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WoW!  What great feedback!  I think these suggestions have narrowed down my choices considerably.  Looks like I need to avoid original actions and look at a Hagn, Borchardt or High Wall repro from Ballard or Meacham.  Does anyone have links for photos or specs on these actions?  I'm not interested in a side hammer or Sharps.

There doesn't appear to be a Kenny Jarrett, Charlie Sisk or Mark Bansner of single shots, someone who can put together a rifle with premium components and painstaking craftsmanship and produce a .5 MOA rifle.  Is there anyone close?  I'm not familiar with Al Story.  Is he a craftsman?  I've had good luck sending rifles to Hart, Shilen, Lilja, Kreiger, Pac-Nor and even Douglas.  I've also had mediocre luck.  It just depends who's running the lathe and the reamer that day.  I want someone who cares.   

Why is a rimmed cartridge preferable?  Won't a rimless cartridge function reliably?  All my single shots to date have chambered rimless cartridges.  Other than the 25 Krag and 7.65R, what are the rimmed cartridges you would recommend that produce ballistics similar to the 25-06 to 280 range?  What are the hot 6.5mm's I should look at?  I would much rather have a traditional cartridge but I don't think I'll find one with the energy or trajectory needed for 350 yard shots at large deer.

I like the idea of getting a Ballard High Wall Classic or a Browning 1885 and rebarrelling it, etc., but I don't want to spend a lot of money and just roll the dice on it's accuracy potential.  If I change my accuracy requirement to less than 1 MOA out to 350 yards, does that open up any new avenues?  Thanks for all the great advice!  As you can see, I need all the help I can get!

Jim

  
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faeroe
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #12 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 2:18pm
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How about a Martini action in .303?

WIN SUPX .303 BRITISH 180 POWER PT
 
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50  100   200   300   400  500 
Velocity (fps)        2460 - 2233 2018 1816 1629 1459 
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50    100   200   300   400  500 
Energy (ft. lbs.)       2418 - 1993 1627 1318 1060 851 
Distance (yds)           50 100 150 200  250   300 
Short Trajectory (in.)  0.3 0 -2.1 -6.1 -12.2 -20.8 
Distance (yds)       100 150 200 250  300   400    500 
Long Trajectory (in.) 1.4 0 -3.3 -8.8 -16.6 -40.4 -77.4 

Or in 7x57R?

7x57 R 139 gr. Soft Point SBA75704 
             Muzzle   100 YDS 200 YDS 300 YDS
 
Velocity (fps) 2651 2330      2048      1800
 
Energy (ft. lbs.) 2167 1674   1293       999 
Point of Impact (inches)  0    -4          -17 

or in 7.62X54R?

7.62x54 R 174 gr. Hollow Point Boattail SBA76208 
 
               Muzzle    100 YDS 200 YDS 300 YDS
 
Velocity (fps) 2615    2412     2225       2053
 
Energy (ft. lbs.) 2647 2253     1917       1631 
Point of Impact (inches) q 0   -4           -15 

Or 7X65R?

S&B 7X65R 173 SOFT PT CUTTED EDGE
 
              Muzzle  100 YDS 200 YDS 300 YDS
 
Velocity (fps) 2608 2318      2060       1831
 
Energy (ft. lbs.) 2611 2062   1629       1287 
Point of Impact (inches) q 0   -5          -17 

 
The accuracy issue has too many variables to list, but the ballistics should be doable.
 
 

 
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #13 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 4:21am
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hi-ho old dog,,

i do have an 85 browning hi wall that was a 30-06. had it chambered to 3oo win mag. because it is a hunting rifle, it was only tested with 3 shot groups.(if you need more than 3 shots, find another hobby) (:>) 

it will put 3 out of a clean bbl into .5-.75 at 200yds all day long. this is the rifle i use when hunting on a manmade hill on the farm. have yardage markers out to 500 yrds around the man made hill. and like jd steele sez, it's feet up with one shot.

..ttfngrampa...
  
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singelshotman
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #14 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 12:42pm
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I think you are too much high tech here, very few can even shoot 1mia, and never offhand while hunting-unless you are the reincartation of Harry pope=just rebember Mr. pope killed 21 deer with 22 shots-and he used a regular High Wall in 30-40 krag-with a winchester barrel, not one of his. All this talk of 1mia is moonshine anywhy, i've never seen a huntrer sighting in yet at my local range who could hit 12 minutes of angle while offhand. Most of them couldn't hit the broadside of a barn-unless they were in it, just like the idiots who show up with a AK-47 and blast away.I used to beat them all the time with a trapdoor 45-70 with black powder and they would go away with there tails between their legs.
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #15 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 4:20pm
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Singelshotman:

Thanks for your reply, but I don't understand your concern about offhand shooting.  I don't think I've taken an unsupported shot at a deer in 20 years.  I take deliberate shots.  I want excellent accuracy because many of my shots (in four different states) annually come from stands or on stalks where I have time to use a tree, a rock or crossed  sticks before taking a shot.  I don't jump shoot deer.

I'm a little surprised that there doesn't appear to be an icon like Echols, Jarrett, Sisk or Bansner, whose ability to put together a single shot rifle with premium components and painstaking craftsmanship to produce a .5 MOA rifle is legendary.   

I'm also not sure why a rimmed cartridge is preferable in a single shot?  Won't a rimless cartridge function reliably?  All my single shots to date have chambered rimless cartridges.  Other than the 25 Krag and 7.65R, what are the rimmed cartridges you would recommend that produce ballistics similar to the 25-06 to 280 range?  What are the hot 6.5mm's I should look at?  Is the 7x57R a popular choice?  I would much rather have a traditional cartridge but I don't think I'll find one with the energy or trajectory needed for 350 yard shots at large deer.

I do appreciate the input from those who have been there and done that!

Jim
  
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PETE
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #16 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 5:05pm
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Old_Dog,

  Not even Harry Pope himself would guarantee a 1/2 MOA out of his barrels/guns, and he was considered the best, along with a coupla others in his day. You're talking apples and oranges when comparing what can be done with a SS and a state of the art bolt gun. There are probably quite a few smiths who could do your project to most peoples satisfaction, but none would guarantee 1/2 MOA. My smith has made quite a few guns for our club members that easily go below 1 MOA on demand. But, I haven't seen one that will do below 1/2 MOA on demand. Sure, they will all hit that level of accuracy, and do so several times out of ten in good conditions. But, that's not a 1/2 MOA gun.

  Rimless cases can be used in SS's but usually require quite a bit of work to get them to work reliably, and if you're using an original action will require the addition of a special extractor and spring to let the extractor override the rim and to keep the extractor tight into the rim cut. This is why most will recommend a rimmed case. Nothing wrong with those cases either. Also, since the rimless case headspaces on the shoulder this would mean that most SS actions wouldn't allow you to have a "crush" fit, like bolt guns do, as they slide vertically in their mortises and anything sticking more than a coupla thousandths beyond the end of the barrel won't allow the action to close. There are at least two actions that "rock" into place but I'd hesitate to even mention them considering the requirements you want.

  Even if you can find a smith that will guarantee you 1/2 MOA you better get the load he guarantees this with or you will be spending a lot of dollars achieving it. In the calibers you want to play with I'm not aware of any "proven" accuracy loads such as there are for the .222, .223, .308, .30/06, .45 ACP, and a few others. So I would imagine you'll have to take your chances with a good smith and hope you can find the Holy Grail.

PETE
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #17 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 5:12pm
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Old Dog,

Rimmed cartridges were the state of the art when most of these actions were designed, and thus the extraction systems were designed around them.  Rimless cases didn't come into vogue until well into the bolt-action era, and the typical claw-type extractor was designed for these cases as well (to maximize magazine capacity and give reliable feeding in military bolt guns).  These classic actions can be converted to handle rimless cases, but it requires all sorts of mechanical gyrations.  Rugers (which you don't like) and the new Browning 1885's were likewise designed to handle rimless cases, as well as rimmed.

As far as accuracy potential, you're comparing apples to non-apples.  While the classic single shot can be made to shoot VERY WELL, it typically requires much more effort, from both the 'smith and the shooter (and his handloading skills) to maximize the potential that might be in the barrel.  It just ain't the same as screwing a Hart barrel on a sleeved Remington 700 action, glueing the works in a McMillan fiberglass benchrest stock, and calling the result a hunting rifle.  I don't doubt that Kenny Jarret can build an accurate Ruger No. 1, for example.  I'd bet you won't get him to make his famous 1/2" guarantee with one, though...

As always, your mileage may vary, and these opinions are worth exactly what they cost!

Good luck in your search,
Greg
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #18 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 5:13pm
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Dang, Pete...I guess we were both writing at the same time, and you pulled the trigger first!

Greg
  
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PETE
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #19 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 5:37pm
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Greg,

  Looks like it, doesn't it.  Grin But, you did add a few points, and maybe we can put to rest the idea Old_Dog is gonna get a 1/2 MOA rifle out of the box. If we could do that with a SS I'd lay out some pretty good money to get one to.

PETE
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #20 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 6:19pm
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Thanks, guys!  I really am a novice at single shots.  As I mentioned before, I've owned and reloaded for several before.  I currently shoot a #1B in .270 that has had nothing more than a Moyers trigger, a Hick's foreend accurizer and a split quarter-rib done to it, and it will keep 150gr. Ballistic Tips over H4350 in .75" all day long.  Partitions will go into less than 1" with H4831 and H4350.  140gr. Accubonds will do better than that.  I figured a good gunsmith and thousands of bucks would be able to get better results than I could with a $600 out of the box Ruger and  $100 worth of accessories.  I don't mind being wrong, it happens a lot.  Cry

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.  Forget the word .5 " "guarantee".  I don't recall using it, but, no matter.  What caliber, gun, or gunsmith, would you use if you wanted to get as close as possible to my wish list for a great looking, superaccurate, 350 yard, deer gun?  Pretend you had $3,000 to $4,000 to do what you wanted.   Remember, Sharps buffalo guns and Ruger #1s don't qualify.  The Borchardt action looks pretty cool, though.   Grin

Jim
  
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singelshotman
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #21 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 8:33pm
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the sharps borcharct is one of the best, i had one till my wife went on disability and i had to sell it to pay my property taxes.
If you like hammer guns it's hard to beat a high wall-i don't recommand Stevens 44-1/2's- i have trouble getting in a 38-55 cartridge.
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #22 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 8:59pm
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OK, since you asked...

I'd start (since I like my single shots to at least LOOK traditional) with a Browning 1885 action (strong enough for anything that can be fired from the shoulder, and already rimless-capable).  To that, I'd add a Lilja or Krieger barrel, .25 caliber (personal preference), contoured full octagon and chambered in .25-06.  I'd stock it in exhibition grade English walnut in as close to the original Winchester Special Sporting pattern (pistolgrip, cheekpiece) as possible, with the traditional forend as well, and fit it up with a skeleton grip cap and skeleton buttplate.

Careful bedding and floating of the forend (possible with the Browning forend hanger) will help to optimize the accuracy.  With a decent set of optics on top, it should do anything the rifleman is capable of, out to 350-400 yards.

As for gunsmiths...Glenn Fewless, Mike Lewis, John King, Ron Snover are a few whose work I'm familiar with...and all are VERY good at single shots.

Greg
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #23 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 9:24pm
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Old Dog, If I were emBARKing (no pun intended  Grin  ) on the quest you are, I would start with a Browning/Winchester (new made) in .25-06 and learn the idiosyncracies involved with two piece stocks, breech blocks instead of bolts, etc., etc., etc.  Once I had really convinced myself that I had learned what I wanted and needed to know in order to make an informed decision and armed with the knowledge born of experience, I would then plunk down the several thousand hard earned dollars you mention to buy the ideal rifle that I now knew to ask for.  From my current vantage point, I would probably end up with a Meacham or Ballard Rifle Co high-wall in some appropriate caliber (I still kinda like .25-35, but YMMV) or I would call Al Story in Oklahoma, I believe, and order one of his gorgeous Sharps Borchardt repros.  But these are MY feelings developed from MY experiences and as with all such matters YMMVWidely!   
One thing we should have mentioned from the get-go is that you should read everything you can get your hands on about single shot design, building, care, and feeding.  I highly recommend "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" by Dell and Schwartz and "The Breech Loading Single Shot Rifle" by Roberts and Waters.  You also should go through (if not buy and outright devour) at least the first couple of James Grant's series, "The Single Shot Rifle," "More Single Shot Rifles," "Still More Single Shot Rifles," etc. and at least the first of Frank deHaas' books, "Single Shot Rifles."  Much of what you read here we gleaned from these and similar sources, but just like reading the Bible and ending up a Baptist or  a Presbyterian, your views will be based on your life experiences, personal views, and a strong shot of serendipity...heck, you might even find out you like something wierd like a Stevens!  (Sorry, leadball! 8)  ) 
Well, this rant has gone on long enough, but I hope you will enjoy and get something out of it, congratulations for finding "the one true way" of shooting, one shot at a time!   8)

Regards,
Froggie
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #24 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 11:10pm
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Another option that occurs to me is Alan Hall's (I believe) action. Alan Hall (I think this is the guy) is better known for his top-level custom benchrest bolt actions, but he also makes a single shot action as well. I tried to find info on it tonight but it's submerged somewhere in what we jokingly call my files.

As I recall, it's a compact sidelever falling-block action of no particular distinction in appearance and without any external hammer. Not beautiful, not ugly, somewhere in between. Certainly better looking than the Borchardt or Hoch or Miller-de Haas but not quite as pleasing as the Hagn or Ruger to my own eye. (even if Rugers are far too common for good braggin' rights, you gotta admit they're good looking, VBG)

I would estimate this action might cost somewhat over $1000 but not as much as $2000. I would also estimate that Alan Hall could probably build as accurate a rifle as anyone in the country, judgng by his benchrest bolt actions.

I believe he's located in Alabama but don't have the contact info.

Have you considered customizing a Ruger by adding sideplates or scalloping the action panels? A few simple alterations can completely change the appearance as desired, while retaining the good characteristics. Just a thought.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #25 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 1:15am
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Your high end estimate is a couple hundred shy.

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Tentman
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #26 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 6:41am
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Hello Guys

Time for me to risk a bit of a rant (being a newbie etc), I'm testing my opinions as "advice" so feedback welcomed.

I'm not too sure that a 0.5" or even a 1.0" rifle will add anything for shooting deer size animals but if thats what you need to be confident then I won't argue.

Maybe there are some features that might help narrow down your choices. 

Firstly is a beefy stock bolt and socket for the buttstock or even better a one piece stock, but there are pecious few single shot actions so designed, and thats one of the main reasons I consider you won't get a single shot to approach the accuracy avaliable from a bolt action.

Secondly is a fast lock time, lots of persons can shoot well with a slower locktime, but they are the exception rather than the rule by my observation.

Thirdly would be a straight line firing pin, hitting at dead centre (surprising how many rifles are not dead centre, and I think on a "block locking" action its real important).

The above kinda narrows it down, and thats before you start considering triggers etc.

Cheers - Foster
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #27 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 9:42am
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I am amazed, nay I'm astounded at the price of the Hall action. IMO it's not worth anywhere near that much, primarily because it's not very attractive to my eye. Kinda reminds me of the Dakota 10 in that aspect, it's just not very attractive to my eye considering the price. The self-setting set trigger is an excellent feature but doesn't make up for the price. The rear line of the receiver is very unattractive to my eye because it clashes with the lines of the wrist, it really needs to be altered somewhat in order to be good looking. Also the receiver ring is far too short for either best looks or best accuracy IMO.

IMO it would be a great action for around $1500 or less, sorry Alan.

If I wuz planning on spending $3-6K for a rifle, I would INSIST that it be attractive, in fact I would insist that it be a VERY nice art object in and of itself in addition to and regardless of its performance. This does not mean simply good or even excellent workmanship although a superior workmanship level is absolutely required in a rifle costing this much.

No, I would also insist that the lines and shape of the rifle be very attractive to my eye. And the Hall isn't, nor is the Dakota or the factory Borchardt or any Stevens for that matter. And the Hoch or Miller-de Haas kinda look like trot-line sinkers to me. But that's why they make chocolate & vanilla and have horse races & elections, differences of opinion.

I guess I'll hafta stay with my choice of the Hagn for an expensive action with either an altered Ruger or altered Borchardt as my second less-expensive choice. I love Winchester walls but they too are not the most attractive if left unaltered, they need a different top tang line for best looks IMO, and the wall tang line is difficult to alter successfully. And then there's that lever.........

You can get either a Ruger or Borchardt for much less than a Hall or Dakota or Hagn, and use the extra money to alter and improve its looks before your smith begins the stock work. AAMOF a new lever & a little scalloping on either action will effectively improve and disguise its appearance so that it's almost unrecognizable as the common or ugly original that it once was.

When I worked in nuclear power we were introduced to the famous 80-20 rule, i.e. solving 80% of any problem takes 20% of the total time and the last 20% of the problem takes the other 80% of the time.

Well, I figure that I spend 80% of my time in handling & fondling a rifle but only 20% of my time in actually shooting it or hunting with it. So the aesthetics are very, very important to me & therefore a rifle that's less than beautiful is NOT what I want to spend my money on.

True, accurate rifles are always interesting rifles but I'm sorry, ugly rifles don't attract me at all regardless of their accuracy. It's too easy to have both beauty AND accuracy, why sacrifice either one?

I suggest you call my friend the estimable Mr hst, he can build you a rifle that's as accurate as any. His record of proven personal accuracy performance with his own rifles is very enviable and his machining skills are impeccable. I haven't yet seen any of his stockwork but his metal-working skills are unsurpassed IMO.
Good luck whatever your choice, Joe
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #28 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 10:04am
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A few further personal observations on accuracy needed for hunting.

The usual error-of-aim in the field has been calculated to be around 1 MOA or more, because of things like lack of a truly steady rest, relatively light rifle, elevated adrenaline levels, shortness of breath, rushing the shot due to fear of the game moving, etc etc. When you add the error due to the rifle's accuracy capability (say another 1 MOA) then you have a possible total error of 2 MOA even before you consider other things like wind or range estimation.

At 350 yds this translates to a possible 7", easily enough to totally miss the instantly-vital area of a whitetail deer & end up with a wounded animal that has run off. Not A Good Thing. So IMO all the accuracy available is still not too much, and 1 MOA is the absolute maximum that's acceptable to me for a big-game hunting rifle to be used at ranges over 300 yds.
JMOFWIW, regards, Joe
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #29 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 4:12pm
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Joe:

I agree with you on both the accuracy and the aexthetic requirements.  In fact, about the only thing we don't agree on is the attractiveness of the Ruger action.  Wink

Jim
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #30 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 4:41pm
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O.K., then.  If I go with Greg's suggestion and pick up a modern Winchester or Browning (or Italian?) High Wall, who is the gunsmith I want to screw a new barrel on it and who is the smith that will stock it with fabulous walnut in the Winchester Special Sporting pattern?

And what would you guess the price for each of those operations would be?  My guess is that we are right up there with a gun from Ballard, Meacham or Borchardt.  And we still haven't solved the caliber dilemma.  The Borchardt is for rimmed cartridges only.  I would love a traditional cartridge, but can't think of a rimmed one that would do what I need done. Froggie's 25-35 is cool but it lacks the reach.  What I really need is a rimmed 25-06!  Any suggestions?

So it looks like I need a top smith (or two if the barrel guy doesn't do wood) and a High Wall type action to put together my 25-06.  Or, I need a Ballard, Meacham or Borchardt and a rimmed cartridge that will do what I'm looking for.  Any thoughts about which option will produce the most accurate gun?

Hey, you guys may think I'm running around in circles but I think I'm creeping up an a solution!  Grin

Jim
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #31 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 7:15pm
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I certainly can't speak for its accuracy, but the high walls from (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) are available in .270. I'm certain they would chamber for any of the rimmed European 7 mm jobs already mentioned as well as the .25-06. The owner once told me their rimless extractor works well and that he had no reservations in offering it. Certainly that in the Ruger No. 1 works well enough.
  

Karl
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #32 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 9:56pm
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I'm not sure, but I believe either Winchester or Browning (who are actually the same and both having the rifles built in Japan) offered the modern high-wall in .25-06.  Even if they did not, there are a host of BPCS rifle builders who specialize in setting these rifles up for competition, I don't use or know them because I don't use that action, but they are discussed all the time.  Anyway, any of them will be able to put the .25 barrel on for you and you will be in business.  I'm still having a hard time with the .5 or even 1.0 MOA requirement on a hunting rifle...remember what was said earlier about Harry Pope, one of the best and most particular single shot builders and shooters of all time...he hunted with a stock high-wall sporter with a Winchester factory barrel in .30-40 Krag.  I would still suggest that if you are new to single shots that you should 
1) start with a simple project as listed above, which even with a coustom barrel won't break the bank and will be sellable if and when you move on to the next step, and then...
2) read EVERYTHING you can get your hands on about single shot actions, barrels, loads, etc. so you can...
3) design and build the rifle you truly want to have for all time (or like the rest of us until another "pretty girl" turns your head.)

Whatever you read here is the opinion (FWIW, FBOFW) of the writer and will almost assuredly differ somewhat in the end from your own because we are us and you are you, and everybody is different.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!  8)

Froggie
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #33 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 8:42am
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Thank you, Froggie.  I appreciate your comments.  As I mentioned previously, I have owned numerous single-shots, a Dakota #10, a Browning Low Wall, and several Ruger #1s, including my current #1B.  I have fiddled with all of them (except the Model 10) including rebedding forearms, installing Hick's accurizers, Moyer's triggers, modifying quarter-ribs etc.  I believe that I am familiar enough with single-shots to know that what I have had so far is not what I want. None of the above have shown the accuracy that I am looking for or the features that I am looking for.

I don't want to pick up another vanilla single shot.  I want something that shoots better than anything I have had and that looks better than anything I have had.  I don't find side hammers attractive.  I don't find Rugers attractive (or maybe since you see them every time you turn around they have just lost their cachet).  I want something different. I want something that will be at home in a treestand shooting at deer at 350 yards.  I want something that I can use to stalk deer.  I want something that will be fun at the range, developing loads and poking holes in paper.

That's why I'm soliciting opinions.  I haven't had these traits in one gun.  I have bolt guns from Forbes, Sisk, Jarrett and Grisel.  They do excellent work, but they are not single shot experts.  I was hoping to get recommendations for smiths expert in both metal and woodwork on single shots.  I am familiar with most rimless cartridges but don't think I have owned a rimmed cartridge other than the .22LR and the 30-30.  I was hoping to get a rimmed cartridge recommendation that would accomplish my goals.  I'm currently set up to reload at least 20 different cartridges.  My ULA is a 250 Savage Ackley Improved.  My Jarrett is a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved.  Wildcatting doesn't bother me.

If there is someone who specializes in setting up modern High Walls for competition, I would love to have their contact information.  I haven't found that information yet.

I apologize to all if my questions seem too basic or too nitpicking, I'm just trying to get all the information I can from people who have actual experience with the subject matter.

Jim
  
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DonH
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #34 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 9:47am
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As a newcomer to this discussion I don't have anything new to add because Joe stole all my ideas already. The actions which came immediately to mind were the Hall and the Miller (I had forgotten the Hagn). I agree with Joe on the Hall as to it's looks or lack thereof but I will say that to my knowledge it was designed with accuracy foremost in mind. And that in field where form follows function - "beauty is as beauty does".
I probably agree with Joe also on the price of the Hall action with the caveat that it was designed for accuracy rather than having to be "accurized".

If one wants a more classic look I think it would be hard to beat starting with a Ballard rifle Co. High Wall Express or High Wall Classic and adding one's own embellishments for a truly classic rifle. For a 'smith to work on a rifle such as Old Dog has in mind, Mark Penrod might be a man to talk to. As to the accuracy desired, I don't think it will be so hard to achieve with one of the good actions and a high grade barrel chambered for a modern cartridge firing Jacketed bullets. However, since once a rifle leaves a 'smiths hands he has no control over anything so it may be a little difficult to get anyone to give an actual gaurantee.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #35 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 10:22am
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Jim, it's gonna be hard to find a single top-level smith who:

Does both wood- and metalwork to the same excellent standard
Does accuracy work to your desired level
Specializes in single shots
Will build a rifle in your price range with an appropriate accuracy guarantee

There are a lotta guys who do some of this, and some others who do most of this, but I don't know of anyone who does all of what you're seeking. I can point you toward a few whose quality is unsurpassed, and who do both wood- and metalworki to the same excellent standard, but they're not necessarily accuracy smiths. A few good single shot accuracy smiths come to mind but they specialize in target rifles & not lightweight sporters with high-intensity cartridges.

You said you have had rifles by such folks as Jarrett and Grisel but they were not single shot smiths. Well, if you meant Pete Grisel, he is very knowledgeable about single shots and is also one of the best custom workmen around. He's not an accuracy smith as such but is well aware of accuracy requirements and is an excellent shot himself. I met him while we were in school together & have seen his work and also seen him shoot, albeit the occasions were many years ago. I would imagine it would be hard to find a better smith, and if you weren't happy with his work then you're probably pretty hard to please. Or maybe you had one of his bolt actions & didn't know he built single shots?

In any case it may be difficult to find one guy to do it all for you, to your satisfaction. I would suggest finding a new Browning/Winchester repro in either 25-06 or 270 WCF, tuning it up to your accuracy standard, and then having it restocked to your specs. If this means first having it rebarreled by an accuracy smith and then later having it restocked by someone else, then so be it.

Appropriate rimmed cartridges include the 6.5x57R, 6.5x61R, 6.5x65R, 6.5x68R, 7x57R, 7x65R, 7x75R and 30R Blaser. I have experience with the 6.5x57R and the 7x65R, both will do what you want but I personally prefer the 7x65R. My second choice among these would be the 6.5x65R which is basically a rimmed 6.5-06. These cartridges can be found in the book Cartridges of the World.

Good wildcats include the 25-06 or 270 WCF with rimmed cases, easy to make using various other rimmed brass (see above) for a basis and you can use standard dies & chamber reamer. The full-length 25 Krag is another excellent alternative.

Another idea that I've been considering is the 284 Win or 6.5-284 using rimmed brass made from 45-70 or 45-90 cases. It would be easy to have the 45-70 brass spun out a little longer or shorten the 45-90 stuff, & then size it down in standard dies, and of course your smith could use a standard chamber reamer & then cut the rim recess with the lathe tool. Necking down the larger brass will automatically give you the option of a tight-neck condition due to the neck brass thickening, so you have a built-in accuracy improvement possibility when adjusting neck thickness. A lot better than a tight-neck chamber IMO. This is one of the possibiliites I've been considering for my switch-barrel Borchardt, 4 barrels in 6-284 Rimmed, 284 Win Rimmed, 33 WCF Improved and 45-90, all using the same extractor size.

Like Paul Simon says in his song, there are fifty ways............
Good luck, Joe
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #36 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 11:02am
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Hi, Joe:

First off, Pete is the Grisel I was referring to.  I have an absolutely beautiful, full race, custom pre 64 Model 70 Winchester in .270 put together by him.  It's a work of art.  Gorgeous wood, shawdowline cheekpiece, skeleton grip cap, checkered steel buttplate and flawless wraparound checkering with ribbons.  The metal work is just as good, from the built up and checkered bolt release button to the three paneled chekered bolt handle.  It is the best looking rifle I own.  A classic.  But it is not the best shooting rifle I own.  That is probably the Jarrett gun, although it is probably one of the ugliest guns I own.  You are correct, I wasn't aware that Pete did single shot work, but he is such a master at both wood and metal (and I agree with you that the two are hard to find in one person) that I would not be surprised to find he does an excellent job on anything he chooses to tackle.  But like you, I wouldn't consider him a single shot accuracy smith.

Secondly, I want to reiterate that I am not looking for someone to give me a .5" accuracy "guarantee".  I am looking for input from people with hands on experience that are aware of individuals or companies that produce single shots meeting my criteria that have the potential or ability to shoot into .5 MOA.  I'm not looking for a guarantee as I don't think I will get one.

From the excellent responses that I have gotten so far, I think I will probably end up going the route that you suggest.  That is finding a new Browning/Winchester repro in 25-06, having it rebarrelled and tuned by an accuracy smith, and then having it restocked to your specs. If it was your project, who would you have rebarrel and tune the gun and who would you have restock it?

Great info on the rimmed cartrige choices.  I'm most intrigued by the 7x65R and the 25 Krag.  My Ackley books have some info on the 25 Krag Improved (not the shortened versions) but nothing on the 25 Krag.  Do you know where to get reloading info on it?  If I go the repro high intensity High Wall route I'll probably just use a rimless design, but for an action that requires a rimmed round, these look like they might serve my purposes best.

Thanks again for all the help!   Cheesy

Jim

  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #37 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 1:24pm
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Jim, if it was my project and for some reason I couldn't do the work myself (don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself THAT good but I sure work cheap! VBG) then I wouldn't hesitate to use Glenn Fewless (hst) for the barrel work. I've seen his metalwork & it's as nearly flawless as I've ever seen.

Woodwork is another story. A friend of mine, Billy Tierce, who Ken Hurst also recommends, is an excellent sander, finisher & checkerer but his shaping doesn't match my personal taste. And the shaping is at least as important as the actual finishing IMO. Please don't misunderstand, Billy's shaping is first-class as far as workmanship goes, i.e. tiny shadow lines, no runovers, delicately-formed comb nose flutes, etc etc, but the flowing lines themselves are not exactly as I would have sculpted them.

A local Guild (ACGG) gunsmith, David Christman, is also a first-class woodworker and does as good a job as I've ever seen up-close-&-personal, but he doesn't specialize in single shots & I've never seen one of his single shot stocks. David's in the same class as Pete Grisel, and his mentor was Maurice Ottmar who did some of the very best single shot work around, but as it happens I've never seen any of David's single shot stocks & so can't give him an unconditional recommendation so far as shaping goes. And his workmanship doesn't come cheap, I think his stocks start at $2500 plus wood and accoutrements. But he's GOOD! REAL good!

If you intend to use a pre-shaped semi-inlet or similar, then either one of these guys would do nicely. If you have definite ideas and want your stock shaped to match them, then perhaps you might need to do some research to find someone who can meet your exact needs. The only way to determine this would be to examine enough of their work so that you are confident that they can shape it like you want.

I've found that it's a big help for me to actually draw the entire rifle on a big sheet of paper, full size, so that I can experiment with different shaping ideas and dimensions before actually cutting any wood. This is especially important where the woodwork is concerned, but for instance I also like to draw different lever shapes to see which one(s) will look the best with a particular rifle.

When I have the shape like I want then it's a simple matter to scissor out the outline and lay it on the side of a stock blank so I can saw it to match. It's a lot harder than just using a semi-inlet but it's about the only way to get exactly what you really want.

A high-end smith who does specialize in single shots is Edd Webber of Montana, one of the very best in the world IMO. He's very particular about his projects however, and he's sure not inexpensive!

There are some folks here on this board who do good woodwork but I've never seen any of their work up close, maybe someone else can give you some more info on them.
Regards, Joe
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #38 - Sep 10th, 2005 at 11:56pm
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greetings ol dog,

here are three smiths that can build a ss that will be what you want.

glen flewless, (on this site)

dave mos (built custom guns for ballard)

steve durren (see his work in the assra journal)

..ttfn..grampa..

PS... if you want engraving, there is only one master engraver in the world. and that is ken hurst..

  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #39 - Sep 12th, 2005 at 11:59am
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It looks like it will be a Winchester/Browning High Wall repro in 25/06 or any other caliber that will facilitate rebarreling to 25-06.  As long as it is a model that has a pistol grip stock, my sensibilities shouldn't be offended too much until I get it restocked.  The names provided me will be a good start to select a metal smith and a wood smith.  I want to thank everyone who helped me with my selection process and too the time to write me with their opinions.  I truly appreciate it.

Now, who's got a line on a High Wall repro!   Grin

Jim
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #40 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 3:59pm
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greetings again ol dog,

don't be to quick to jump on the 25-06. at best, it was a middle of the road caliber. difficut to make it shoot and not all ways repeatable.. it allways was a handloaders challange.

if you are going with a rimless, check out the wsm line of calibers. esp. the 270 a d 284. they are all super accurate and consistant in accuracy at diff temps.

..ttfn..grampa..
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #41 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 4:54pm
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Thank you, grandpa!

That's the kind of cartridge recommendation I was looking for!  I've heard other mutterings regarding the 25/06 before.  I've had two of them, one, a PacNor barreled Sako shot pretty well (1") with 100gr. bullets, the other was a Model 700 that didn't shoot worth s**t.  I assumed the problem was me.  I appreciate your recommendation regarding the WSM cartridges but, with apologies, will never own one.  Just personal bias, no rational reason required.  How about the 257 Whby?  Any experiences?

I love the bore size.  It seems the perfect compromise for whitetail deer.   I could go to the 257 Roberts Improved, but was looking for Godzilla.  Am I now back to looking at a 25 Krag or 25 Krag Improved?  Will a 1885 Repro set up for a rimless cartridge shoot a rimmed cartridge with a minimum of muss and fuss?  Oh, by the way, I may have found a donor action!  Thanks!

Jim
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #42 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 4:59pm
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Hello All,
   I didn't see anyone mention the Dakota Single Shot? I don't
own a Dakota Single. But!! I did have a Dakota 76 in 375 H&H that sjot clovers as long as I wanted to shoot!  They make a real nice rifle. Jesse
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #43 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 6:31pm
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Another option for a rimmed cartridge would be anything based on a .308 case. The .307 Winchester case could be used to make a rimmed .243, rimmed 7mm-08 or that 6.5mm-whatever that they came out with a while back. There must be a .25 caliber version of it as well.

Glenn
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #44 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 9:05pm
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Mr esteemed hst,
Capital idea! The cartridge in question is the 25 Souper, and it's been around since even before the 243. It's a heckuva good little item, and using 307/356 brass for a rimmed version should make it easy to adjust neck clearance for best alignment.

I personally would choose the 30-degree-shoulder version rather than either the factory angle or the more radical 40-degree. The factory 243 Win has a reputation for eating up throats early due to the shallow shoulder angle, and IMO the steeper 40-degree one is harder to chamber smoothly & rapidly. JMO.

The 257 Wea generally has an even worse rep than the 25-06. Probably due to the varying chambers among both factory and custom rifles, some with the original Weatherby freebore and some without. Kinda hard to use the same handloading data successfully, and woe betide the unwary fellow who fired a factory load in an un-freebored chamber!

If not a 25-06, and you still want something that strikes whitetails like the Hammer of Thor, I suggest either the 6.5-06 or 270 WCF, or the rimmed version of either. The 256 Newton is also an excellent cartridge but is a little extra trouble due to the necessary initial trimming.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #45 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 11:18pm
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Let's not forget all the very fine variations on the .303 Brit, by Epps  and others in the British Commonwealth.  Brass is readily available and cheap, unlike the .307 Winchester.   

One of my "one of these days" projects is to make up a .35 Remington Rimmed, using .303 as the base case, so that I can use a standard chambering reamer and dies...probably on a Rolling Block action.

David 
Montezuma, IA
  

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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xxgrampa
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #46 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 1:15am
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greetings ol dog,

sorry, but i have no excperiance with the 257 whby. i feel the same way about belted cases that you feel about the wsm's. i just don't like them.

howsomever, i do have a few of them belted rascals. only  because i couldn't find anything else. when i do load them up i make sure the case headspaces on the shoulder and  not the belt. headspaceing on the belt leads to all kinds of accuracy pblms.

do have a 25krag myself, howsomever, don't believe i would wang away at a deer 350yds away with it unless it had the rite bullet.

check with the sierra bulletsmiths. they will tell you how thick the jackets are on thier 25cal bullets. some 25's mite open on deer at the 350yd velocities while others won't.

hst and j. d. had some very good thoughts on diff cartridges. both of those guys are wizzards.

good luck and ttfn..

PS.. the only thing i do like about the whby is... sliding a looong cartridge into a singleshot(:>)
  
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vigillinus
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #47 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 4:15pm
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Old Dog, you might consider a Browning Wyoming Commemorative .25-'06, these have 30" octagon barrels.  Dealers usually offer them for $1000-1200, but I picked mine up several months ago from auctionarms.com for $750 new in the box.  Have not shot it yet and the trigger is awful, it has to go to Lee Shaver for his $25 trigger job.  I would have liked it better without the gold "inlay" on the frame but I have seen worse.  The stock has to be replaced because it has the horrible old rifle crescent buttplate for the Western look, I can't imagine anything less rational for a .25'06.  The pistol grip cheekpiece stock for a B-78 will fit and I am hunting for one.   Velocity out of this long barrel should be right up there with a .257 Weatherby.   You might buy one of these and try it out, if you luck out on the accuracy you can stop there.  If not, go ahead and get one of the good smiths to put on a match quality barrel and sell the original barrel on ebay.
  
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Bob_Allen
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #48 - Sep 16th, 2005 at 9:55am
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  Old Dog;
           In looking for a single shot rifle I asked if anyone had any experiance with the 97d rifles by E.A.Brown.On no account did any info on several forums come to light.So I ordered one in 6ppc,a cartridge I have alot of experiance with.
This rifle shoots VERY WELL!VERY VERY WELL!!
   In the last three days I have sat down with this rifle thro
ugh 300 rounds 7 different bullets and only two powders.
    No it's not a classic.It is a falling block.And it looks and carrys well IMO.I had wanted a Hi Wall but I took a chance on this.I,ll be getting another in the spring.If you live in CT. or near here come and try it,if you can find one near you try theirs,an interesting rifle..................Bob Allen
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #49 - Sep 17th, 2005 at 7:19pm
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O.K.!  I've picked up a 30-06 Browning 78 made in the 70's.  I am going to have it rebarreled in 6.5-284.  I wrestled with a traditional cartridge but in the end, my priorities of accuracy and 350 yard deer potential have led me down this path.  What I need now is the following:

Rebarrel with a match grade, half octogon barrel and rework that abortion of a trigger.  Need to rebed the forearm and remount the scope bases, etc.  A cool replacement lever might be a good idea, too!  That S shape doesn't do a lot for me.  Anything necessary to make this a first class shooter.

Refinish and perhaps reshape the current Monte Carlo pistol grip stock.  The existing wood looks very nice and has fabulous figure,  but there are numerous scratches in that shiny, plastic coated finish.  I need a hand rubbed oil finish and I wouldn't mind if someone could knock off the raised comb, leaving a nice shawdowline cheekpiece.

I need to be talked into either a nice color case or french grey finish on the receiver, with a rust blue barrel.  Some nice scribbling on the sides of the receiver might be nice, too.

I don't ask for much.  Just a super accurate, 350 yard deer capable, awesome looking single shot with an incredible fondle factor.   Cheesy  I probably shouldn't tell you guys this, but I plan to sleep with this gun!   Grin

Any suggestions regarding the appropriate people to call for each remaining phase of this project would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks for all the input,  guys!

  
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PETE
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #50 - Sep 18th, 2005 at 8:48am
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Old_Dog,

  For the trigger you can send it down to Lee Shaver for his trigger job. He squares things up and puts in a lighter trigger spring as far as I could tell after looking at one a friend had done. Or, you can have Dale53 send you the instructions on how to do it yourself. This amounts to putting a screw in thru the stock bolt hole engaging the sear and setting things up that way. A simple job you can easily do and between a friend and I we've done 1/2 a doz. without any problems. Comes down to a nice crisp 1 to 2 pds if you want. I still can't figure out how he was able to figure that out!

  For the accuracy requirements you want I would suggest staying with a round barrel. I can't prove it myself but there is some controversy that says a round barrel is slightly more accurate than an oct. or half oct. one. Considering what you want you're gonna need all the help you can get.

  I've had French Grey, blued, and color cased receivers. I like the color case best. Very traditional. Don Menk for this. But, I'm sure you'll have some comments in favor of any of the others to.

  For engraving, I think all on here would agree, you can't do any better than our own Ken Hurst. If you go this route tho Ken will advise you to get a French Grey or something similar to show the engraving up best. Ken knows the guy to send this to, or I imagine he'll do that for you as part of the job.

  I think we've all given you a hard time about being able to do this project to your satisfaction, but I'm sure we all hope you get it done. As you go along I hope you'll keep us posted on it. If nothing else you'll have one beautiful looking gun.

  Better watch that comment on sleeping with this gun. Sounds pretty kinky to me.  Grin

PETE
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #51 - Sep 18th, 2005 at 9:59am
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OK, sounds like you're on your way...I love the planning of a new rifle project almost as much as actually getting started...almost!

Just a word of caution...the Browning B78 and the Browning 1885 use completely different trigger mechanisms, and Brother Dale's sear engagement screw doesn't quite work on the B78.  The two actions are nearly identical, and use a lot of common parts, but the trigger ain't one of them.  I rebarreled a B78 and shot it in BPCR silhouette competition for a couple of seasons, but couldn't find anyone who was willing to work on the trigger group.  I finally started messing with the adjustment screws (after getting a copy of the factory instruction manual from Browning) and was able to get a consistent, manageable, 3 pound pull on mine. 

Greg
  
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Old_Dog
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Re: Action recommendation?
Reply #52 - Sep 18th, 2005 at 12:17pm
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Thanks, Pete and Greg!  This is my favorite time during a project, too.  Unlimited possibilities before you have to start compromising.  I guess that's why it's important to prioritize attributes before you start.

I was afraid Dale's trigger fix might not work on a Browning 78, as I know that was one of the things changed when they went to the 1885.  Does anyone know someone who would be willing to tackle one?  I haven't been able to find a replacement trigger.

I don't know about a round barrel.  I kinda wanted something distinctive.  I've heard some good things about Dan Lilja's octagon barrels and I've always had good luck with Hart and Shilen (round barrels).  I've never tried Badger.  I'll have to get recommendations from whoever does the barrel work.

Everytime engraving or metal work comes up, it seems Ken's name is always at the top of the list.  As soon as I get all the suppliers chosen, his name will be at the top of MY list.  With luck, his schedule may be able to accomodate my project.

So, I still need a top notch rebarreler/accurizer/triger guru and a stock refinisher/reshaper.   Grin  Who would you trust with your dream?  Smiley

Jim
  
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