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chipmaker
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Low Wall Questions
Jun 27th, 2024 at 12:20pm
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I recently acquired a Winchester Low Wall. It's been rebarreled with a 25 1/2" heavy barrel and chambered for the 25-20 SS. DST's have been added and I installed a Fecker scope that looks right at home on the rifle.
Attached are some photos of the rifle and what markings I can find.
My guess is that it was barreled by "Doug" who may have done the rest of the work as well. No serial number, which was lost, when it acquired the DST's. 
I have the Campbell Winchester single shot reference books but not enough experience to easily answer my questions.
Does anyone recognize the markings or have any idea who Doug might be?
I wonder if "RW" might be the barrel maker?
How can you tell if a low wall action is original or a converted high wall?
Thanks for your help.
Otto
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #1 - Jun 27th, 2024 at 1:57pm
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My thoughts are that the barrel could be Douglas and RW the gunsmith?

Can you take a picture of the rifling and the muzzle crown?
  

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kootne
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #2 - Jun 27th, 2024 at 5:08pm
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Hi Otto, the action looks like a Winder musket, probably a .22 short in it's first life. They were highwall actions Winchester had on hand and cut down to Lowall profile. The rifles were sold to Uncle Sam for trainers during WWI. You can see the dead give away in the photo of your upper tang in the "flaming bomb" stamp. 
If the "DOUG" is Douglas barrels (which I'm sure Frank is right about) then I would guess the rifle was done post WWII. So "RW" may still be around. I would guess the 25/20 SS chambering pointing to with the last 30-40 years as it was dead as a hammer before that.
  

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Schutzenbob
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #3 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 10:27am
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Just a guess; Douglas barrel, .257, 1 in 10 pitch, Russ Weber. It should stabilize a nice long 25 caliber bullet.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #4 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 12:29pm
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That's a good guess, Bob!

If you go on the ISSA site, you may be able to find contact info for Pat Weber, his wife. She might be able to help, at least in IDing the mark as how Russ marked his work.
  

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chipmaker
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #5 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 12:55pm
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Frank
Attached are photos of the muzzle and rifling. I'm curious as to why you requested them?
kootne
I missed the flaming bomb and the "US" right above it. I think that you and the other posters are right and that doug indicates a douglas barrel.
Do you think that since it's a Winder musket and a coil spring action, it's safe to say that it was made sometime after 1908?
Schuetzenbob
The seller did say that the rifle did handle the heavier/longer bullets well but didn't know who put the rifle together. 
"RW" would work for Russ Weber and the rifle was shot by breech seating using a Russ Weber bullet seater. I declined buying the seater, which in retrospect was a mistake.
Thanks to all the responders,
Otto
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #6 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 2:43pm
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chipmaker,

I think you've got a 3rd Model Winder Musket action that would have been made in the early 20's. During WWI, it became obvious that many soldiers had little or no experience with rifle shooting, and therefore, the military looked for training rifles to teach Americans to shoot. Yes, you should have bought the Russ Weber breech seater that came with the rifle! 
« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2024 at 2:49pm by Schutzenbob »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #7 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 3:24pm
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I asked about the muzzle crown, because many people have there own style. I know that I do, for sure.

That can be a clue to who did the barrel install. I don't know Russ's style but, maybe someone will.

The rifling does look like a Douglas, button style.

I did talk to Russ, at Spokane, 2 or 3 years before he died and he was working with a different 25 cal case, I think based on a 357 Max so, it's not that rifle (didn't look at the muzzle) but, it could have been something he shot before that. If so, it would add to it's valve, in my opinion.
  

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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2024 at 11:42pm
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Russ Weber built two rifles for me.  I pulled the forends off and neither of them is marked "RW".

One gun was built around 2012 and the other 2015 or so.

Maybe Russ marked his barrels in his earlier years?
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #9 - Jun 29th, 2024 at 12:54pm
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Smoke
Thanks for taking to time to check your Russ Weber rifles,
Schutzenbob
My understanding of type 2 and 3 Winder muskets is that type 2 were made by reshaping high wall actions and type 3 were originally made to the low wall contour.
What features of my action make you think that it's a type 3?
I checked with the seller of my rifle and found out that it didn't come from GunBroker with a bullet seater. He  added a Barry Darr seater for his shooting.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #10 - Jun 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm
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Smoke wrote on Jun 28th, 2024 at 11:42pm:
Russ Weber built two rifles for me.  I pulled the forends off and neither of them is marked "RW".

One gun was built around 2012 and the other 2015 or so.

Maybe Russ marked his barrels in his earlier years?

What does the muzzle and crown look like?
  

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Schutzenbob
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #11 - Jun 29th, 2024 at 4:05pm
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chipmaker,

"Just a guess" In fooling with old rifles, I've found that there are always exceptions to the norm. In my limited experience, the 1st and 2nd Model Winder Muskets were hiwalls with Krag sights. The 3rd Model, which is by far the most common, is a lowwall (cut-down hiwall) with a Lyman adjustable aperture sight mounted on the right side. Again, there are probably exceptions to this. This is a page from Campbell's first book.
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2024 at 4:43pm by Schutzenbob »  
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chipmaker
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #12 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 1:18pm
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Schutzenbob
Thanks for the explanation of the three types of Winder muskets. Since your response , I've also found an article by Bret Hartman on Winder muskets that is an excellent review of the three types.
I agree that my rifle uses the type 3 action. It is drilled and tapped for the Lyman receiver sight but Hartman says that the Lyman M-53 sight was used, instead of the reversed M-41 shown in Campbell's book.
Does anyone know if all Winchester high wall actions were drilled and tapped for tang sights or was this an option?
  
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #13 - Jun 30th, 2024 at 10:06pm
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frnkeore wrote on Jun 29th, 2024 at 1:12pm:

What does the muzzle and crown look like?


.22 Hornet on the left, .25 Hornet on the right.

(dust from gun socks)
  
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chipmaker
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Re: Low Wall Questions
Reply #14 - Jul 1st, 2024 at 11:44am
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Smoke
Thanks for taking the time to check your rifles muzzle and markings. I agree with Frank that many gunsmiths stick with a muzzle crown that works for them but Russ appears to have used different types.
It appears as if Russ Weber isn't likely to have been the maker of my rifle.
Thanks to all the responders.
Otto
  
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