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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value (Read 2653 times)
830singleshot
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #30 - Jul 16th, 2024 at 1:45pm
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One other thing, it's possible the firing pin is broke and the tip is staying in embedded in the primer when the body retracts.  I still suspect an oversized firing pin hole and to small a pin.
It's not a particular difficult or expensive repair, but it does take someone who works on single shots a lot.
Good pictures of the block face and firing pin will tell a lot.
These guns have been around more than 100 years.  At one time they were cheap and every hack had a turn at them.  It certainly appears the one you have is worth getting right.
  

J. Scott McCash&&New Braunfels, TX&&830-237-2376&&jsmccash@yahoo.com
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singleshooter721
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #31 - Jul 16th, 2024 at 6:15pm
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I really appreciate everyone's knowledge and concerns!

It was definitely factory RWS ammunition, I had thought about reloading with some Remington BR primers.

I pulled the breech block and took some pictures, I have a very untrained eye but the block doesn't look too oversized compared to the pin to me with the pin extended. I did some googling based on the input here and found another thread that talks about pin profiling, it does look to me that the underside of the pin is somewhat relieved per the other instructions. The pin is definitely sticky in the block, my instructions don't address removing it but I assume it's just a set screw and a pin holding it in? 

I also re-measured my barrel cast, unfortunately I only have ball mics but I was careful not to set it in the groove and was able to get some repeatable measurements.

Also, unfortunately I pulled everything apart before reading the comment about timing... I'll have to check it after reassembly.

What do you all think?
  
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singleshooter721
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #32 - Jul 16th, 2024 at 6:15pm
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More pics
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #33 - Jul 16th, 2024 at 7:40pm
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Do you suppose that the block was originally a 22RF block and was reworked to CF? If so, the firing pin may be a bit odd looking if you pull it out. This is what I found when I got my 219 Donaldson Wasp. I ordered a new CF block from CPA and then all was well and it then took standard CF firing pins which were properly fitted to the block.
  
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singleshooter721
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #34 - Jul 16th, 2024 at 9:53pm
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oneatatime wrote on Jul 16th, 2024 at 7:40pm:
Do you suppose that the block was originally a 22RF block and was reworked to CF? If so, the firing pin may be a bit odd looking if you pull it out. This is what I found when I got my 219 Donaldson Wasp. I ordered a new CF block from CPA and then all was well and it then took standard CF firing pins which were properly fitted to the block.


I'm not sure if I would know the difference. I removed the retaining screw and the pin doesn't seem to want to come out. I gave it some light taps with a brass punch but it's pretty well settled into the block.
  
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Dellet
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #35 - Jul 17th, 2024 at 8:47am
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The firing pin should retract to at least flush, if not a bit recessed. It should float freely and more or less drop out under its own weight. Without a measurement, it looks also to protrude too far. That might also explain the primers.

Pin travel is determined by a groove in the pin, see below. It’s possible someone made or modified the firing pin to put a spring in front to push it back. That is not how the originals were done. To put in a spring, the striking portion of the pin needs to be longer. If it’s broke or collapsed it may be what’s binding the firing pin and keeping it from coming out.

Regardless, what’s there needs to come out and find out why it won’t fully retract, and slide out of the block.

Photo is from CPA, they sell new firing pins.

  
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bobw
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #36 - Jul 17th, 2024 at 11:42am
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I would agree with Dellet.  Not knowing if the pin was against the pin groove stops in the pictures I can’t say on the protrusion or retract position.  But, going by what is seen in the pictures, the pin appears to be extending to far and not retracting far enough.

Here is how I like to set up a firing pin.   

When retracted, like Dellet says, just below the bb face…retraction stopped by the pin groove against the retaining screw.

When the pin is extended and flush with the rear of the breech block, as if hit by the hammer, around .055 protrusion.  When extended I don’t want it to be stopped at the front by breech block or by the firing pin groove hitting the firing pin retaining screw.  The hammer stops against the breech block, which stops the forward pin movement.  The primer cushions the hammer blow against the bb.

From what I am seeing, I would make a new pin in order to have a better fit in the front hole of the breech block.  Although this could be troublesome.  Sometime the pin is smaller because the main pin body and the FP hole are not centered on each other properly, so people reduce the size of the pin, or enlarge the bb hole, or both, to get it to work freely in the bore.  Looking at the primer picture it appears the primer flow around the pin is offset, so this may be the reason for the larger hole.

Sorry, this is probably more than you really wanted to know! Grin
Bob
  

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singleshooter721
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #37 - Jul 17th, 2024 at 7:46pm
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Bob, Dellet - thank you for following up with more information on the pin. 

I was able to get it removed but it really didn't want to come out and I had to tap it with a punch which may or may not have shortened the pin length by damaging the tip. In the previous pictures the back of the pin was not flush with the block. After getting the pin removed I needed to gently sand and file a few spots to get it to slide freely, I then cleaned up the tip as well. I don't have great tools for measuring protrusion but I'd say that if I line the back of the pin flush with the block I get about .02 protrusion now.

My pin is bent slightly upward compared to the CPA pictures, but otherwise looks correct. I'll assume I should just put a new one in. Is there anything else I should check out before placing an order? Any reason to suspect that the block needs to be replaced?
  
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bobw
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #38 - Jul 17th, 2024 at 9:03pm
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Pin’s definitely bent.  I would replace it, see how it looks and if looks good try it.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
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Dellet
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #39 - Jul 18th, 2024 at 12:14am
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Looking at the pin, the face of the breech block, and the primer strikes on the brass, I’m not sure it’s worth the effort.

Check the diameter of the pin you have, compare to an original. I’ll check one for you in the morning, maybe someone will beat me to it.

If you look at the face of the block, there is a circle worn by the primer, note the firing pin hole is not centered. Same on the primers you posted earlier.  If it was just off up or down, you could adjust some with a link, but it’s more like 5:00.

It’s kind of a tough call, because you may have to fit a new block to your action.

Again CPA to the rescue, they normally have original sized blocks and also one made oversized so that it can be fitted.

You won’t know for sure until you try, but it looks like a potential for having the same problem with just a new pin.

Measured a firing pin this morning. It’s slightly oval with the large diameter top and bottom .250”x .230” the firing pin protrudes roughly .055” from the face.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2024 at 9:39am by Dellet »  
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830singleshot
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #40 - Jul 18th, 2024 at 4:39pm
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This gets back to what I was saying about so called gunsmith monkeying around.  If you look at the front of the block, you can see a circle around the firing pin.  You can also see file marks all over the face.  I think the block has been bushed with a screw then filed for headspace and redrilled for the firing pin tip.  It's not parallel to the body of the firing pin.   
To get it to fire,  someone reduced the tip size and bent it.
It can all be redone and made right but it might be more cost effective to start with a new block.
If Gail at CPA is still there, I would call her and ask if CPA would do the work or her recommendation on who to send it too.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news
  

J. Scott McCash&&New Braunfels, TX&&830-237-2376&&jsmccash@yahoo.com
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singleshooter721
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Re: Help needed with Steven's 44 1/2 value
Reply #41 - Jul 21st, 2024 at 7:31pm
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I appreciate the measurements and information. After mulling about this over the weekend, I decided that I'll order a new pin from CPA and see how it fits. If it's a no-go then I guess I'll have an extra. 

I figure that if I had been able to get it out without mashing the tip, I probably could have removed just enough material to fix the issue. I'm also pretty sure that my camera phone makes the block look worse than it is and I'm certain that it hasn't been bushed. If it gets here before the weekend I'll see if I can't get it fitted for another test and post an update. I did find the correct micrometers to help with installation too.
  
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