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Loose primers (Read 2424 times)

Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Loose primers Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 6:25pm	Print Post
	Hello all, Is it normal for new starline 38-55 2.125 brass shot behind a breech seated 333 grain tapered Bullet with 15 grains of unique (1350 fps) to have the primer loose to the point of blow by coming around the primer? Primers fall out with virtually no effort after only a couple firings. Was shooting 23 grains of 4198 with the same Bullets and no issues. Thank you for any input! Jason


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7249 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Loose primers Reply #1 - Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 6:48pm	Print Post
	That's TO much pressure with Unique! 10.0 gr would be ok.

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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #2 - Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 7:03pm	Print Post
	Thank you! I started at 10 grains, and kept adding powder to get the speed up to 1350, I take it that’s not a great approach in the future. Jason


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Schutzenbob Frequent Elocutionist Offline Rheinisch-Westfälisc hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken Posts: 2043 Location: Nightingale, California Joined: Oct 24^th, 2005	Re: Loose primers Reply #3 - Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 9:40pm	Print Post
	A loose primer is a sign of excessive pressure.
	« Last Edit: Jun 23^rd, 2024 at 1:53am by Schutzenbob »

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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #4 - Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 10:59pm	Print Post
	Thank you gentlemen! Very poor mistake on my part 4198 powder shot the best groups at 1450 fps. When I decided to try unique powder I just assumed I’d target the same relative velocity. I’m obviously new to this and was given some advice to get a program of ballistics calculations but I don’t have a computer, just the phone. So I haven’t figured out how to get such a program on the telephone. I appreciate your input, it sounds like I should stick to 4198 powder in the 38-55 and keep the unique for the smaller calibers! Thank you for your patience with a new guy, I’m sure I’ll have many more silly questions…….. before I make a dangerous mistake next time Jason


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JerryH Frequent Elocutionist Online ASSRA Member #10876 Posts: 1240 Location: Easton, CA Joined: Nov 9^th, 2014	Re: Loose primers Reply #5 - Jun 23^rd, 2024 at 12:02am	Print Post
	There are no silly (stupid) questions asked here. You'll find a wealth of information and a sincere willingness to help you.
	« Last Edit: Jun 23^rd, 2024 at 1:06am by JerryH »
	I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing.
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16022 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Loose primers Reply #6 - Jun 23^rd, 2024 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	10-12 grs. is where most people find best using Unique, but as much as I like Unique for some cartridges I don't think I'd use it for a breech seated .38-55 with heavy bullets. I agree with going back to 4198 for this.

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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7540 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Loose primers Reply #7 - Jun 24^th, 2024 at 4:00am	Print Post
	Unique is very useful with light bullets around 1100 FPS in the 38/55. All my Unique 38/55 loads are fixed cartridges subsonic due indoor range requirements. Heavier bullets 300 + my best powder was 4759 now discontinued, later switched to 4227. It’s ideal for 200 -300 yards accurate to 500, larger bore probably better for over 300 but the 38/55 has its advantages at long range. Mild recoil one. Those powder's suit my shooting mostly due to holding velocities to about 1250 outdoors longer ranges. Something else could be better higher velocity Boats


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jhm Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1419 Location: georgia Joined: Sep 4^th, 2011	Re: Loose primers Reply #8 - Jun 24^th, 2024 at 11:57am	Print Post
	Most of the straight wall cartridges no matter bore size are relatively low velocity so you need to use powders suited for such. 5744, 4198, 3031 etc are all good powders. I have done the same in past and it only takes a couple rounds to find your mistakes. I once loaded 50 rounds and had to pull them all and start over. I had a cloverleaf going at 100 yards but on the third round I blew a primer. We have all done it so don't feel bad. Just do some research start with low to moderate charges and go from there. Stay safe cause it is all fun till someone gets hurt... JMH


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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #9 - Jun 24^th, 2024 at 2:53pm	Print Post
	Thank you! I appreciate all your input! Do you guys start with a mild charge and work your way up watching velocity with a specific velocity in mind? I’ve read some threads here on the forum about having velocity supersonic all the way to the target, that’s why I was trying to get up to 1350 fps. That was just a guess of how fast I would need to keep it supersonic out to 100 yards This may have been a false assumption on my part also Thank you again Jason


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4570mike Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 383 Location: On the Peninsula Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Loose primers Reply #10 - Jun 24^th, 2024 at 6:57pm	Print Post
	Hey Jason, My wife and I both shoot the 2.125” 38-55 with smokeless. The best load we have encountered with a 330 gr slug (Accurate Mold) is 18 gr of 4198. Used it out to 400 yards on silhouettes and it performs very well. Mike.


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7540 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Loose primers Reply #11 - Jun 24^th, 2024 at 9:38pm	Print Post
	I’ve always loaded my CPA 38/55 with smokeless to black powder velocity’s. Reason is BP required in matches, wanted practice smokeless loads to nearly same sight settings. Never saw a reason to go faster. They are supersonic for a bit then settle down to sub sonic before 200 yard targets. I consider it a good combination to 500 yards. It won’t knock over all rams but in my hands shot higher scores than bigger calibers, = hit more targets. 32/40 other hand works well with smokeless at about 1450 fps. It’s just supersonic at 200 yards with charges around 14.5 grs of 4227. Some days some rifle ranges (not all are measured accurately) need a bit more powder. You can see the wiggle holes on paper if they go subsonic at point of impact. Others may see it different. Boats


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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #12 - Jun 25^th, 2024 at 11:24am	Print Post
	This is all very encouraging, thank you all kindly for your willingness to help! I will repost in the future with some results Jason


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SchwarzStock Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1129 Location: SchwarzWald Joined: Mar 23^rd, 2010	Re: Loose primers Reply #13 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 4:03am	Print Post
	Back during the development of what eventually became the 338 Lapua, the original Brass was produced by Bell for the RAI Model 300 rifle in the early 1980's. It was known to be soft and often it was impossible to open the bolt without the aid of a plastic mallet. I was told (ca 1988) a contributing factor was that the bullets used were 0.339 and were also spiking pressures causing the tie-ups. I ended up with some of this brass and used it in my Rem 700 based 8.58x71 (military designation before 338 Lapua). You can see where the base of the casing was extruded into the ejector pin hole of the bolt face using the loads recommended to me by the gunsmith at RAI, he barreled and chambered my 700. Anyway, primers were not falling out until I have loaded the cases more than 5 times BTW: note the lack of the headstamp...
	« Last Edit: Jun 30^th, 2024 at 6:43am by SchwarzStock »
	If your rifle is not in 7.62 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammo you are a pretender.
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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #14 - Jul 4^th, 2024 at 2:09pm	Print Post
	I said I’d check back with results, Seems the rifle prefers 4227 powder to 4198 Thank you gentlemen for your help! Still have a lot of playing around to do with velocity at further distances but testing was done at 75yds, and shows signs of encouragement Jason


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Mick B Oldtimer Offline Posts: 999 Location: 19 Ian Nicol St watson ACT aus Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Loose primers Reply #15 - Jul 6^th, 2024 at 12:52am	Print Post
	I may have picked the wrong place to post this but I have about 15 40/65 cases that have developed loose primer pockets to the point, that a seated primer may sometimes just fall out when the cartridge is handled. To counter this problem with any, that seat a bit to easy, I put a small dab of fast drying clear nail varnish over the primer which kind of glues it into place and stops it falling out during handling. My question is this, is there any simple quick way of making the primer pockets a bit tighter, without requiring expensive tools or skills. Cheers Mike.


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Bluedog Participating Member Offline Posts: 35 Joined: Jan 14^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #16 - Jul 6^th, 2024 at 6:47am	Print Post
	Mick B wrote on Jul 6^th, 2024 at 12:52am: I may have picked the wrong place to post this but I have about 15 40/65 cases that have developed loose primer pockets to the point, that a seated primer may sometimes just fall out when the cartridge is handled. To counter this problem with any, that seat a bit to easy, I put a small dab of fast drying clear nail varnish over the primer which kind of glues it into place and stops it falling out during handling. My question is this, is there any simple quick way of making the primer pockets a bit tighter, without requiring expensive tools or skills. Cheers Mike. I don’t have any advice on salvaging the brass, hopefully someone may. Mine live in a coffee can with mostly brass I have rolled a case mouth compressing black powder……. They get along well together, talking about the good ole days I presume Jason


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KFW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 551 Location: Powell Wy. Joined: Dec 18^th, 2016	Re: Loose primers Reply #17 - Jul 6^th, 2024 at 7:54am	Print Post
	This simple fix requires a lathe. Make a anvil with a annular slightly raised ring that fits like a shell holder in your press. You are swaging a crimp ring like on military brass.


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Mick B Oldtimer Offline Posts: 999 Location: 19 Ian Nicol St watson ACT aus Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Loose primers Reply #18 - Jul 6^th, 2024 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	If the "simple fix" requires a lathe I hate to think what the "complicated fix" requires. My total tool kit consists of some scr, ewdrivers, files and a hammer. My mechanical skills are zero. Mike.


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KFW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 551 Location: Powell Wy. Joined: Dec 18^th, 2016	Re: Loose primers Reply #19 - Jul 7^th, 2024 at 8:03am	Print Post
	A lathe is nothing more than another tool that most real "gun cranks" should own after a few years of playing this game. It would be like a carpenter not owning a table saw. Small lathes are still to found at reasonable prices.


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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3545 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Loose primers Reply #20 - Jul 7^th, 2024 at 3:42pm	Print Post
	most of us lacking a lathe is how most gunsmiths remain in operation- if we all could do it, .....pooof!


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Mick B Oldtimer Offline Posts: 999 Location: 19 Ian Nicol St watson ACT aus Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Loose primers Reply #21 - Jul 7^th, 2024 at 10:42pm	Print Post
	I don't have a lathe, or the ability to operate one, as I live in a small two bedroom house if someone gifted me a lathe I would have to put in my bedroom. Perhaps I should lash out and buy some more cases, it's only money. Cheers Mike.


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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1893 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: Loose primers Reply #22 - Jul 8^th, 2024 at 12:11am	Print Post
	MikeB, here ya go. Wayne ===================== See the following video: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Items needed: • 0.209” pin gauge • 0.210” pin gauge • In place of the two pin gauges a primer pocket go/no-go gauge is available from Brownells (100-015-614WB Large Primer Pocket Swage Gauge) • 5/8” hardened chrome steel ball bearing • Hammer • Flat file • Long bolt that snugly fits the case necks. Make sure the end is nice and flat. If the .210” pin gauge slides into the primer pockets than the pocket is too large. The goal is to reduce the diameter of the primer pocket until the .210” gauge will not fit and the .209” slides in but is a snug to tight fit. • Place the ball bearing on the top of the slightly open jaws of a vice. If the ball bearing tends to roll out of position, tap it with a hammer to make a small indentation in the edges of the jaws for the bearing to set in. • Insert the bolt into the case. • Set the case primer pocket on the ball bearing and strike the bolt with a hammer to flare out the inside of the primer pocket. • Once the primer pocket is sufficiently tight the file is used to remove any ridges or raised metal around the primer pocket created by the tightening process. When finished the face of the case head should be flat.

	NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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MarkTrew Participating Member Offline Posts: 10 Joined: Jun 5^th, 2024	Re: Loose primers Reply #23 - Jul 8^th, 2024 at 3:15pm	Print Post
	Didn't somebody used to make a tool for swaging primer pockets back to size? I don't think it would help for the brass shown. I had one years ago, used it on a couple boxes and thought twice about the program. Mark Trew


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condorsc Full Member Offline NRA Life/Benefactor, ASSRA, SCV Life Posts: 143 Location: Beaufort, S.C. Joined: Nov 13^th, 2021	Re: Loose primers Reply #24 - Sep 3^rd, 2024 at 1:18am	Print Post
	Bluedog wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2024 at 6:25pm: Hello all, Is it normal for new starline 38-55 2.125 brass shot behind a breech seated 333 grain tapered Bullet with 15 grains of unique (1350 fps) to have the primer loose to the point of blow by coming around the primer? Primers fall out with virtually no effort after only a couple firings. Was shooting 23 grains of 4198 with the same Bullets and no issues. Thank you for any input! Jason I use 18 gr. of 4198 as a go to load. Good in BP rifles and smokeless. 23 gr. will show primer punctures and other serious signs.


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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 741 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: Loose primers Reply #25 - Sep 3^rd, 2024 at 8:35am	Print Post
	To answer a question, yes there was a company that made primer pocket swage to tighten up loose primer pockets. the company was Mounting Solutions Plus. The swage was for worn primer pockets and not for those expanded by excessive pressure. There is a rod that extends up through the case and sets in a block, the swage has a guide pin that goes through the flash hole and a shoulder that swages the primer pocket top a bit when you tap it with a soft hammer. Sam


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