Hello everyone,

I have a CPA made Stevens 44 1/2 in 45-90 that I would like to shoot with PPB. I have read various posts made on the subject and also The Paper Jacket (by Paul Matthews). I have not yet read book by Randy S Wright, but the book is ordered and on its way.

The part I'm confused is with the different advice on what the unpatched and patched bullet size should be, to bore diameter vs groove diameter, throat shapem, smokeless vs black powder vs blackpowder with swabbing, and so on. 

My scenario is, blackpowder with swabbing in between shots. Hoping to get to Oak Ridge for the first time this year in October if I can get reasonable ammunition dialed in. 

The best I can measure with slugs is that I have a bore diameter of 0.453". I am unsure of the shape of the throat taper. I might attempt chamber casting with cerrosafe but I had  a bad experience before so not sure if I want to risk it again...

I have a bullet mould (straight sided bullet) that casts  1:16 lead to 0.442" (used for by Gibbs rifle). Would this be way too small to use, even if I use paper on the thicker side to get to 0.453"? 

I would appreciate any advice to get me started, especially for deciding on a bullet mould (if I need another one) and sizers since those might be the longer lead items to purchase if I want to finish load development before the August deadline. 

thank you!

If your bore diameter is .453 you'll likely want a .448-.450 diameter bullet patched in 8 lb paper. Seth Cole 55w. Assuming it's an 18 twist barrel keep the bullet length to 1.42, you might get away with 1.45.
I load the straight sided bullets with a thick Napa rubber cork wad, and a muzzleloader original dry lubed felt wad under the bullet.
If the throat in your rifle is like the one in my CPA you might find the dual diameter bullet with a .450 base diameter to shoot quite well again patched with the SC 55w.
Fouling control is paramount for patched accuracy.

Hello,

Another great resource is Kenny Wasserburger’s book. He is on the Shiloh forum

I can tell you 9# onion skin paper from BACO dry patched adds .006”
I shoot .444 (patched to .450)
And DD .452to.444 (patched is .458to.450) in a Shiloh Sharps bore .450 groove .458
Both Moulds are Steve Brooks

Good luck!
Jason

Paper patch , bullet length is king. weight is secondary.
1.42 comes from a lot of rounds down range at 1000 yards, with bullets cast from adjustable moulds testing various lengths. I have a range here on my property that I can shoot to over a mile if I want to. Testing in various wind conditions mostly looking for a good 1000 yard load that would hold 2 moa or less vertical.
Patching the dual diameter bullet you want to adjust the patch length so that the edges either touch or slightly overlap the base diameter. Wet patching will shrink the paper tight on the bullet. Best to wet patch and then set them on a cup/candle warmer to dry. on that 1.42 length I like to keep the patch width to 7/8 inch.
BACO will build you the bullet modified from one of their designs. I like to keep the base length to 1 caliber. Brooks will also build you a dual diameter. If you go that route it will be adjustable, and I suggest having him put his original postel nose, and a flat base base plug. Altho he will build you a fixed base pour.
Been messing with these dual diameter bullets since before they were cool. What you'll find either the rifle will love em or hate em and there doesn't seem to be any in-between. I also believe that with the dual diameter bullet that a single thick wad is all you really need under it. Seat it so that it just does chamber, Ie the transition sets right against the throat.

I like the dual diameter bullets to be the same diameter as the bore , before patching, with the nose diameter at or just slightly under what you would use on a straight sided bullet patched to bore. Typically I like the seth cole 55 y, but 55 w does work.
I find that what ever the total length of the bullet is the base should ideally be 1 caliber long, IE 44 and 45  .4 long, with an 11 degree taper from the base to the base of the nose. 
Yes the base plug is for a nose pour adjustable mould. Those are handy to experiment with various bullet lengths, altho you will find that the longer or shorter you make the bullet the base length will change. Sometimes it matters sometimes it don't.
One thing you might think about on your CPA, is to take the barrel off, wrap the threads with 1 or 2 wraps of teflon tape, then put the barrel back into the action. Apply a small drop of blue loctite to the set screw and tighten it to 45 inch pounds.Check the set screw after every relay. Those set screws tend to loosen up with the heavy recoil and give you a bunch of vertical that will make you scratch your head..

I haven't shot a lot of paper patch but have been around guys that have shot paper patch and shot it well at Lodi. Lodi Wisconsin has more paper patch shooters than anywhere in the country. Sitting around after a match and listening to the discussions, they all agreed on one big ingredient for shooting paper patch, a snug fitting bullet. They all said that the looser the fit of the bullet in the barrel, would cause a decrease in accuracy. They wanted the bullet to be a snug fit in the barrel but not a tight fit where you might tear the patch. Most of them said to pick your paper first, and then have a custom bullet mold made that would allow you to patch the paper to the bullet and then have it be a snug fit in the barrel. Best accuracy also came with the bullet seated about 1/10 of an inch into the case. Some used fiber wads but it seemed like a majority used 060" polywads. They just wanted enough neck tension to hold the bullet in the case.
Your bore diameter seems to be an odd size so I would buy a couple pin gauges just to make sure about your bore size. Then pick a paper that is about a .001 to .0015 an inch in thickness. Thicker paper doesn't seem to do as well . You can wrap it around a measuered drill bit and see how much it will add to the size of the drill bit. You will want two wraps around the drill bit so that your patches just butt up but do not overlap. Some wrap dry and some wrap wet but none seem to be able to agree on which method is more accurate. Once you have your paper picked out, then have a good mold maker make you a bullet mold that will cast a bullet in diameter that with the addition of the paper, will just match bore diameter. The good shooters tried to find paper with some cotton content added to it, although some said that the Seth Cole wood fiber paper worked just fine. The guy I listened to most is no longer with us but his name was Jim Kuskens and he and guys like Brent Danielson and Arnie Seitz had their ducks in a row and their experience was top-notch. Another very experienced paper patch shooter is Kurt Altenberg and he hangs around here and goes by the name of Leadpot.  My shooting partner is a die-hard paper patch shooter as well and he offered a lot of good information on our 12-hour trips to Forsyth. After wrapping his bullets wet and letting them dry, he pushed them through a custom-made sizer die that was right at bore diameter or slightly larger. He shot some very good scores as well with paper patch at Lodi.

I am using PPB's for hunting so my cartridges need to be able to stand a little handling and not fall apart. I seat bullets about 0.300" into the case and use a taper crimp die. I use duplex charges, a lube wad and lube the paper on the bullet with a smear rubbed on between my fingers. I normally load a wax paper disc then a card disc on top of the lube wad to prevent the lube wad from sticking in the hollow base of the bullet. Doing this I find all wads lying on the ground within 5 yards of the muzzle so I know the lube is not sticking and dropping off at differing distances (or not) during flight changing the flight characteristics for each shot.

FWIW: I still handle them very carefully!

Thank you all for all the advice! That's a whole lot to digest and think about. 

I have a 0.450 minus pin gauge and that slid down the bore slowly and gently. I think air pressure was slowing it down. So it can't be that much bigger than that. My slugs keeps coming back at just around 0.452. I ordered pin gauges up to 0.453 so we'll see where it stops. thanks for that idea!

Obi2Winky wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 4:22pm:


just out of curiosity have you loaded and fired  your rifle with a grease groove bulle? if so which bullet and how many lube grooves exposed to get the driving band to the throat?

Okydoky then there's a long way to go and not much time to get there if you're looking to go to the Creedmoor 150.
So maybe start with this mould. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
When you place the order have them throw in some .060 wads, either fiber or the ldpe.
Hopefully you've got dies already, and a chamfer tool for the insdide of the case mouth. After you get the blocks and cast some from 16-1 alloy and get them wrapped, if the expander die expands the cases to much to give you a bit of neck tension, then take a measurement of your patched bullet and get a custom expander die about .002 over that diameter.
Then start testing loads as best you can, followed with excellent fouling control routine. Bore pigs of some kind are the best bet. I like the Bore Wipe system from BACO, it's expensive to set up but it sure works.If you start with 1 or 2 kits and a package of 250 felts you'll be good to go.
Then hopefully you can catch some matches like the Read PA, maybe if they're still running the midrange matches in New Jersey, and the long range matches at Lodi Ws.
Your .442 bullet will likely work for some things, but it's more likely to leave you in a lurch looking for the 10 ring on targets beyond 600.
1 1/2 f powder likely be your best bet, but 1f can also work well. 2f will work but the recoil factor will go up .

Ranch13 wrote on Mar 29^th, 2024 at 11:41pm:


I don't have dies yet. But in my shopping cart,  I have the Lyman Classic rifle set for 45-90, expander body and compression plug. Once I get a more accurate bore measurement, that'll decide my final patched bullet diameter, which will determine the expansion plug. 

Fortunately I have a lot of Swiss 1/5 F!

As for bullet moulds, I spoke to Steve from Brooks today and he said he could get one made in not much time once I decide on a design. So there's hope



Now I know where the tax return money will go 
BACo seems to be out of a lot of things. No 45 cal bore wipe kit, and no 45-100 brass to trim down to my chamber. But I do have 45-90 so that'll have to do.

I second the idea perhaps it would be good to get a handle on the rifle and cartridge with GGB's and work up to PPB's as time goes along.

I'm definitely not opposed to going GG, especially if I'm going to have to get a new mould. But then I would have to also die a luibrisizer which I don't have.