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skydabber
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2 grouping Hepburn
Jan 20th, 2024 at 6:04pm
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I have a Hepburn chambered in 40/60 Maynard. This rifle shoots two good groups at 100 yds but 2 inches apart. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to which shot will go in which group. 
I shoot from a sandbag/cross sticks directly on the barrel just ahead of the fore end. The situation repeats with irons and a scope.
The two group remains with the fore end removed.
The hammer sometimes will rebound to the half cock used to clear the firing pin. It does not do this every time. 
The crown shows a uniform grease pattern.

Does anyone have any ideas?

I don't think it is the load. Here is the load just in case.
19gr 5744 Fed210 2.846 oal
.035 card wad with 1.3gr poly fill
422gr grease groove sized to .409
30 inch bbl 7 groove 16" twist .407 groove dia .399 bore dia
  
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ssdave
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #1 - Jan 20th, 2024 at 6:51pm
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You've eliminated sight problems by using irons and scope.  Forend would make it walk, not shoot 2 groups, and you've eliminated that.   

Next thing I would try is see if the buttstock has any wiggle or movement to it.

Where are the groups in relation to each other?  Same relation every time?  Vertical, horizontal, or diagonal?

Have you tried resting the barrel about 3 inches from the muzzle, instead of in front of the forend?
  
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skydabber
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #2 - Jan 20th, 2024 at 8:30pm
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The buttstock has no wiggle that I can feel. 
The groups are diagonal to each other. Second group is at 10:00 to the first group. Both groups are round.  This is staying consistent.
I will try resting 3" from the muzzle.
  
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skydabber
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #3 - Jan 20th, 2024 at 8:41pm
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Here is the 40/60 group.
  
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ssdave
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2024 at 10:35pm
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If you've shot this enough times to know that the two group phenomena is repeatable, (not just a 2 or 3 or 4 time coincidence) then I'd increase or decrease my load by .5 grain, to see if you're right on the cusp of a harmonic, and the load velocity variation is causing the barrel to vibrate differently.  Moving the velocity away from that harmonic will sometimes change the grouping, if that's the culprit.  If moving the load that much changes the grouping dynamic, then shoot loads at .1 grain increments to find out what works, and what doesn't.

Moving the resting point does the same thing a different way.  It should affect the barrel harmonic, and maybe move you away from the harmonic node at your velocity if that is causing the odd grouping.  Needless to say, try the two things independently of each other.
  
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skydabber
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #5 - Jan 20th, 2024 at 11:20pm
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Loading this batch of 5744 up .5 gr will vertical string. I might have to back the charge off and see what happens. 
I have been using some ancient 5744, maybe try a fresh batch of powder? 
I could work up a 4759 load, but I don't want to waste it. (have a couple of "race guns" that love 4759 and I can't make more)
  
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ssdave
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #6 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 12:05am
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I'll be burned for this heresy, but I do not like the use of 5744, I think it is too inconsistent and has too sharp a pressure curve, being double base.  I'd speculate your vertical stringing is because of wide velocity variations due to that steep pressure curve.

I'd try substituting H or IMR 4198; they have very similar burn rates to 5744 but the 4198 is a lot more predictable,  and has a lot less velocity variations.  It's slightly slower than 5744; you can try a direct substitution and work up from there safely.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #7 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 12:12am
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Wont get burned by me Dave! I love 4198, and it has very small velocity spreads across my chronograph. It also has an almost perfect pressure curve.
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #8 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 12:46am
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Another possibility is your forearm may be rubbing on the receiver.

You should have a dollar bill to business card thickness width between the receiver and the back end of the forearm for adequate clearance.

I also bed the forearm to ensure there is no high versus low spots where the forearm can rub from recoil.

But you said you have the same problem with the forearm removed.

So where are you resting your barrel when you benchrest shoot? Have you found the sweet spot for your barrel where you should always use to rest it at?

I get 1 MOA accuracy with 52.7 grains Swiss FFFg black powder with a .060 grain vegetable wad and a 422 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet with my .40-60 Maynard CPA.
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2024 at 12:54am by Schuetzendave »  
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LRF
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #9 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 6:49am
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When ever anyone mentions 5744 powder this thread comes to mind.
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I think your issue is with internal ballistics issues and that is the powder you are using.
Try 4198 IMO
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2024 at 6:54am by LRF »  
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skydabber
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #10 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 3:38pm
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I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. 
The 5744 seems to be a touchy subject.
Thankfully, 4198 is readily available. I will work up some loads with 4198.
After I find the charge weight I may play with the bullet seating depth.
How much effect would shortening the OAL/bullet seating depth of the cartridge have? I would assume the slightly etching the bullet in the rifling is the goal, but the Hepburn does not cam closed like a HW or Sharps. The Hepburn is pretty unforgiving about this. (Highwalls will spoil you)
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2024 at 4:07pm by skydabber »  
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Premod70
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #11 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 4:18pm
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You mentioned the hammer not returning to the same resting place, pull the buttstock off, remove the trigger group and move the hammer fore and aft checking for any rubs that might be raking the sides of the action; there should be free movement. Also check the tightness of the hammer spring while you have it out. Another thought is for a double trigger, check the fly for fitment, those things can make the hammer strike erratic. Good luck.
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2024 at 4:33pm by Premod70 »  
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marlinguy
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #12 - Jan 21st, 2024 at 6:26pm
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I shoot several Hepburns, and I seat my bullets to just touch the rifling, not so firmly they wont easily chamber. Same for my Rolling Blocks as they don't have any camming action either.
  

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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #13 - Jan 23rd, 2024 at 3:34pm
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I have a .45-70 Jim Hamilton Hepburn and have had very good accuracy by camming the cartridge in using a camming tool. easy to make or buy. I also cam in my cartridges with my other rifles too but these (a Highwall and CPA) have camming breech blocks. 

I have tried loading with no camming required but always found better accuracy with camming.
  
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Re: 2 grouping Hepburn
Reply #14 - Jan 24th, 2024 at 6:13am
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Considering all described, I would change powder. Agree with you on 4759 I use my supply sparingly. Have found 4227 to be a useful replacement. Omitting the wads would remove variables too. You could go back to wads after testing another powder.

Boats
  
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