Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range (Read 4600 times)
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Aug 28th, 2023 at 8:39pm
Print Post  
Many black powder shooters indicate they want to over spin their bullets (Sg>2.0) to compensate for drag when shooting long distances (1,000 yards).
They do so by choosing a tighter twist barrel.

Dave Gullo has demonstrated excellent performance shooting long range so I decided to evaluate if he was over spinning his bullet.

Caliber      0.447      Inches            
Bullet Weight      525      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.45      Inches            
Barrel Twist      17      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1350      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      2.51                  
           
                       
Sg shouldn't be less than 1.4 (not spinning fast enough).  If Sg is greater than about 2.0 you may affect accuracy. 

Dave Gullo is over spinning his bullet in his 17:1 twist barrel but has enough velocity to stabilize the yaw. 

His Creedmoor nosed bullet has the center of gravity far enough forward providing good dynamic stability at long range.

(This has been edited since I found his bullet was actually a bit shorter)
     
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

So the next question is: When does overspinning of the bullet become excessive and the low velocity of BP shooting mean you will no longer be able to stabilize the yaw? 
In other words when is the rifling twist too tight?
                 
« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2023 at 11:15pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
idjeffp
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 372
Location: Boise, ID
Joined: Nov 11th, 2017
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #1 - Aug 28th, 2023 at 9:05pm
Print Post  
Question: 0.447" due to paper-patching? What cartridge?
JP
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #2 - Aug 28th, 2023 at 10:25pm
Print Post  
Dave Gullo's rifle is a rebuilt antique Ballard Number 7 A-1 Extra Long Range action, rebarreled and chambered for the .44-90 Remington Straight cartridge. His load featured bullets from a BACO Creedmoor nose mould (JIM447525C2) at .447-inch diameter, weighing 525 grains when cast from 20:1 alloy and powered by 74 grains of Swiss 1½ Fg. Other ingredients for his loads included a .030-inch poly wad, Federal’s GM210M primer and SPG Tropical bullet lube. The .44-caliber barrel, which was made by Krieger has a 1:17-inch twist. A Kelley Soule tang sight is on the rifle and at the front rides an MVA #118 sight with a .105-inch aperture.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2716
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2023 at 11:20pm
Print Post  
Yeah lots of people went to faster twists.  I went to 1:16 for .45 cal which seems to work great.  My 1:18 twists also seem to work great, but my 1:16 twist .45-90 seems to be my most accurate of the various 45's I own.

I wonder if Dave still shoots the Creedmoor bullets?  I haven't been south of the border for a long time so can't say.  If you look at his mold catalog there are a few 45 cal Money bullets that have his 400 yard testing targets in the notes.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #4 - Aug 28th, 2023 at 11:42pm
Print Post  
When I tried the Money bullets (with center of gravity further back than a Creedmoor) I found it went to sleep at 500 yards.

In other words the velocity we normally shoot BP at would not stabilize the yaw which becomes worse with increased drag over time over longer distances travelled.

To get the Money bullet to shoot I went to Swiss FFFg which provided the velocity I needed to stabilize my Money bullet which has more yaw because of it's center of gravity.

But my Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet which I used in a different rifle shot long distances at lower velocities without going to sleep.
The PJ bullet had the center of gravity further forward due to the nose design, but was also further ahead than other makers of Creedmoor nose bullets since he cut the grease grooves deeper and wider to remove weight at the back.

« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2023 at 11:57pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2716
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #5 - Aug 29th, 2023 at 9:10am
Print Post  
I think the Creedmoor bullets might be easier to get to shoot well, but I've had great success with the various money bullets from BACO.  Mostly I shoot them pretty fast though.  Generally at 1300 fps or faster.  I have had promising results in my 45-70's but I shoot them a lot less than my .40-65's and my longer case 45's.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 18328
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #6 - Aug 29th, 2023 at 11:23am
Print Post  
I've had much better results with weight forward bullets for years, and try to choose that design whenever I'm picking a mold for any new cartridge I begin loading for. 
I've contemplated trying to have a mold built with not only deeper lube grooves, but also a hollow base, just to see if lightening the tail of the bullet even more will increase stability more too. Of course it would be a nose pour also, to be able to have a good hollow base design bullet.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1854
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #7 - Aug 29th, 2023 at 6:31pm
Print Post  
gunlaker wrote on Aug 29th, 2023 at 9:10am:
I think the Creedmoor bullets might be easier to get to shoot well, but I've had great success with the various money bullets from BACO.  Mostly I shoot them pretty fast though.  Generally at 1300 fps or faster.  I have had promising results in my 45-70's but I shoot them a lot less than my .40-65's and my longer case 45's.Chris.


Here's a picture of 4 bullets from when everybody was experimenting with nose shapes.  L to R-Early original Postell, PJ based on original Sharps paper patch nose, DT second iteration, DT 1st iteration.  I found the PJ paper patch nose easy to get a good load for but the DT bullet was a little more accurate at 900-1000 yds but I would get that occasional, "what the hell happened there". Dan tried his !st iteration and then moved on to his second by having Paul grind the cutter to a pointier nose.  He then thought the 1st was better and wanted Paul to cut a new one and Paul refused.  Baco even took it further and made the nose pointier yet.

Chris. [/quote]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2716
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #8 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 9:17am
Print Post  
Interestingly not all of the BACO money bullets seem to have the same nose shape.  My 458535M1 has a pointier nose than my 459540M3 & 459542M3.   

Those 3 all seem to work well for me, although I always wondered why BACO changed the nose shape.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #9 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 2:54pm
Print Post  
A bullet's degree of yaw will increase if the center of gravity is further back. 

Yaw is stabilized by higher velocities however slow moving BP projectiles may be a bit too slow to stabilze the yaw.

So we select bullets with the center of gravity further forward to minimize the bullet's tilt or yaw.

Increased yaw results in increased bullet drag plus the yaw makes the bullet more susceptible to wind drift.

So both bullet nose design can increase the yaw angle.

It is recommended to keep your gyroscopic stability factor (Sg) to less than 2.5 and select flatter style bullet noses such as the Postell, Creedmoor or Elliptical with a more balanced center of gravity. 
The reduction in yaw means you will have dynamic stability for longer distances.

And your bullet will not deviate as much from wind drift.

Or take up high power shooting where the increased velocity will stabilize the yaw.

So long distance shooters are trying to overspin their bullets to compensate for drag.
But the increased yaw from overspinning results in more yaw which then increases drag -  so are tighter twists more beneficial if you are now mores susceptible to wind drift? and you may be contributing to drag instead of compensating for it?
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2023 at 4:34pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2716
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #10 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 9:48pm
Print Post  
It is possible for sure Dave, but there sure are a lot of guys finishing in the top 3 shooting 45's with 1:16 twist and Money bullets.  That's why I switched to that setup and I am super happy with it.  Of course long range BP shooting is tricky because there is always so much going on in 3+ seconds of bullet flight through variable winds, that it's difficult to tell whether a perceived small improvement is real or not Smiley

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #11 - Aug 30th, 2023 at 11:03pm
Print Post  
Yes Chris there are those who have shown success going to Money bullets and using tighter twists.

Of coarse the yaw stability can be stabilized with velocity.

What have these transitional shooters also done?

They started using longer case capacities or using tapered bullets which can protrude further into the bore enabling more case capacity for powder.

More powder resulting in increased velocities which enables the stabilization of the yaw from Money noses or yaw from over stabilization of the bullet.

But then burning all that powder meant more fouling of the barrel.

Then we had to develop practices of wipe between shots etc. to better manage the fouling.

But maybe we were better off with fatter nosed bullets shooting lesser twist barrels and not blowing off so much powder.

Just thought I would throw out the other points of view.

But we forgot to discuss they also went to heavier bullets to benefit from the "Kinetic Energy" principle which the tighter twist barrels allowed them to do.



« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2023 at 11:13pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
art_ruggiero
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1224
Location: CT
Joined: Dec 14th, 2008
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #12 - Aug 31st, 2023 at 8:11am
Print Post  
maybe 72 cal mini balls are the answer Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2716
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #13 - Aug 31st, 2023 at 9:17am
Print Post  
Dave I made the switch because that's what the top 3-5 shooters were pretty consistently using.  My scores went up when I did.  Some of them are using tapered bullets, but not all.  The 459540 and 459542 bullets that are being used have only the front band reduced.  They shoot extremely well with only 80gr of powder which isn't a lot for a long range load.  I've also had excellent results with the 458535M1 which has a straight cylindrical body with the narrow profile money nose.  The other two I mentioned have a little bit of a heavier nose.

When I first got into this stuff I did all sorts of experimentation, then I switched over to more or less copying what the top shooters were doing and have never looked back.

I was very fortunate because some of those top shooters gave me a lot of little tips when I shot at matches with them.  It didn't take very long at all to see dramatic improvements in scores.

You are right about fouling control.  Next to correctly reading the wind, fouling control management is the next most important thing in long range shooting.  I've sometimes pushed 5 patches through between shots. No big deal though, BPTR rules allow for plenty of time.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4265
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Gyroscopic Stability BP Long Range
Reply #14 - Aug 31st, 2023 at 10:24am
Print Post  
Decades ago I also switched to tighter twists and heavier bullets in the Schuetzen game while increasing my powder load and it improved my scores.

The heavier bullets with better kinetic energy due to their mass and velocity were far less susceptible to wind drift.

So many long range shooters think they are reducing bullet drag by using tighter twists where I say the benefits come from using heavier bullets at more velocity resulting in improved kinetic energy.

I am not sure the improved BC of a Money bullet nose is that beneficial compared to using a slightly heavier Creedmoor bullet with better dynamic stability (due to forward center of gravity) and greater kinetic energy.

Dave Gullo has been extremely successful using Creedmoor bullets.

And yes I would prefer a 69 cal. miniball (750 grains) sniper rifle instead of a 58 cal. (500 grains) but would not want to be hit by either.
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2023 at 11:05am by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint