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ScrapMetal
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Need some barrel advice on a new build
Jun 30th, 2023 at 2:51am
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I recently took over work on a "Hepburn rifle kit" from Upper Missouri Trading.  I plan to make it in to a long range rifle (think Quigley) and plan to shoot black powder only.

So far I'm thinking I need a 32" barrel, preferably half&half with a 1:16 twist in a .45-90 or .45-100.  While some of those parameters may be subject to change what I really need is a recommendation for a barrel makers.  Who makes the very best barrel along those lines?

Can anyone offer some suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

-Ron
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 9:07am
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Ron, I think you will be limited by the number of barrel makers out there that will do a 16 twist in a 45 caliber. Green Mountain makes that particular barrel in several different weights. I have used them and found them to be a very good barrel. BRC barrels generally come unprofiled, but you can check with them and they may be able to do that profile for you but I don't know if they do a 16 twist. I would limit the caliber to what  brass is available right now. Bob
  
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Ranch13
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 9:17am
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McGowen barrels can do that.
  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #3 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 11:31am
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Many of the current barrel makers can not make a 32-34" 1-16" profiled blank. I did get a large round 35" McGowen blank and had C. Sharps profile the octagon to my dimensions, but it was 1-18 twist. The Bore quality is superb, no tooling marks like my last 2 Green Mountain "covid" barrels.
kw
  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #4 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 1:54pm
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Ron,
Finding a barrel mfg that will make this to your specs is becoming harder and harder to come up with.  RKS in Wimborne, Alberta will make one to almost any spec you desire, call them at (403) 631-2405.
I have several of Ron's barrels (in excess of a dozen) and nearly that many made by his grandson ranging from 22's to 50's and no complaints from this peanut gallery.  I prefer his gaintwist's in all of mine.
The 18 twist will stabilize up to a 600 grain pill in most cases but you have to order and install what puts your mind at ease...  Dabble in the stability calculations program @ JBMBallistics.com or one similar to get your mind around what's needed.
I have a 45 cal. blank from BRC that is an 18 twist, choked, going on a '77 Sharps build - probably be the 2.6" chamber and kept legal weight for the Creedmoor match.  This is following recommendations of a fellow shooter and the successes he's had.

Another note, unless you have a real high tolerance for recoil or have a wonderful stock design for your Hepburn build, I'd really ponder your idea of making this a 45-2.6 - I have two Hepburn builds in larger calibers - a 40-82 and a 44-77, both have long range stock configurations and with full case of 1.5 Swiss pushing the 455g in the 40, and a 540g in the 44 - you really have to hang on and enjoy the punishment... Wink
Good luck
Greg
  

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wesg
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #5 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 3:12pm
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I'm partial to Krieger, and they do a 14 and 16 in a .450/.458.

I don't think they do octagon, but you could spec the appropriate dia's and lengths to save a bunch of time.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #6 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 5:41pm
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Back when Dave Crossno was alive I got a silhouette stock set from him for my Hepburn build in .45-70 cartridge. Not an extremely heavy barrel, but a #3 weight GM barrel cut to 30". The stock uses a Sharps shotgun checkered steel buttplate, and the angle of the stock is better than the original Remington design for taming felt recoil. Gun weighs about 10 lbs. and my 530 gr. bullet load is not abusive in this rifle. It's a 1:18" twist and stabilizes the heavy bullet fine.

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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #7 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 6:25pm
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I have one .45 x 16 twist Green Mountain, half octagon/half round barrel left from my old barrel business. where I sold barrels specifically contoured and configured for single shots.   

It has a slight defect in the rifling at the chamber end, that necessitates a .45-90 to clean it up.  I had 30 of these barrels at one time, barreled several myself and sold many; the ones I did and tested were excellent shooters.

$325 plus shipping if you want it.  I can verify dimensions and post a picture if you're interested.  Come to think of it, I'll do that now and post it in the classifieds this evening.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #8 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 6:46pm
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ssdave wrote on Jun 30th, 2023 at 6:25pm:
I have one .45 x 16 twist Green Mountain, half octagon/half round barrel left from my old barrel business. where I sold barrels specifically contoured and configured for single shots.  

It has a slight defect in the rifling at the chamber end, that necessitates a .45-90 to clean it up.  I had 30 of these barrels at one time, barreled several myself and sold many; the ones I did and tested were excellent shooters.

$325 plus shipping if you want it.  I can verify dimensions and post a picture if you're interested.  Come to think of it, I'll do that now and post it in the classifieds this evening.


If it's the usual GM 35" blank, wouldn't cutting 1/2" off the chamber end allow it to be chambered in just about any .45 rifle cartridge Dave?
  

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ssdave
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #9 - Jun 30th, 2023 at 9:30pm
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It's 30" long, and 18 twist.  I mis-spoke when I said 16 twist.

I bought a lot of odd lot stuff from Green Mountain, McGowen, and Montana Rifleman when I was doing these barrels.  The entire lot of these barrels had the same reaming defect, in the same location.  The length might be from shortening them to eliminate defect, or they may have made a run that length for somebody that didn't pass QC because of the defect.  I do know that chambering for .45-90 cleans it up entirely, and they're good barrels.   

I put it in the classifieds, with dimensions.  I believe it to be a Green Mountain, but it could be a Montana Rifleman also.  Usually Montana only sold me modern calibers, and the large calibers came from Green Mountain.  So many barrel lots i bought, hard to remember for sure and I didn't mark it at the time.

  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #10 - Jul 2nd, 2023 at 8:19am
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RKS did a barrel for me recently .450 - .458 gain twist 1 - 17 ROT at the muzzle. Finish length 32". I may be mistaken but I believe he could do a 16" ROT.
  

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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2023 at 11:14am
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Ron Smith of RKS Enterprises can do straight or gain twist barrels with any twist you desire in chrome moly or stainless steel. 
You can request either a 6 groove or 8 groove barrel or even fewer grooves if you desire.
I have used the 8 groove barrel since the bullet aligns better and is more concentric in my opinion.

His barrels are cut point precision cut where he makes 40 cuts for every groove.
The barrels have a continuous taper of .0004" between the chamber and muzzle.
The choke provides the best accuracy for shooting cast bullets (reduces ability of gas cutting around side of bullet).
The gain twist reduces barrel wear by 10% to 15% for high pressure high performance use of his barrels.

Ron Smith
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403-631-2405

Again I post the accuracy from my 5 shot cast bullet groups shot @ 100 yards with a .32 RKS 8 groove gain twist stainless steel barrel ending in a 11.5 twist. 

I have made one or more rifles with RKS barrels in the following calibers: .22 LR, .218 Bee, .22-250, .223, .25 RKS, 6mm Remington, 6.5x55 Swede, .270, .280, .308, .30-06, .300 Win. Mag., .32RKS,  .32-40,  .35 Whelan, .38-55, .40-65, .45-70, .50-70.

They have all had EXCELLENT performance in Schuetzen smokeless powder cast bullet rifles, Black Powder rifles and hunting rifles. 

Ron always says to select the weight and length of bullet you intend to shoot; in order to provide the best twist for gyroscopic stabilization before you order the barrel.
Also he can consider how best to throat the chamber.

Works better being able to start with the correct bullet instead of trying to test numerous bullets to work out your new barrel.
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2023 at 12:27pm by Schuetzendave »  
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ScrapMetal
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #12 - Jul 6th, 2023 at 3:46am
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Guys,

Thanks so much for all the information.  I am very sorry that I didn't post back sooner but "life" kind of got out of hand for a bit.  I'm still in a bit of hurt for time so I haven't completely absorbed all that has been posted.  I definitely haven't been able to spend any time with the ballistics programs or looked in to any barrel makers.

While I try to find some time to put in to this something else came to mind, not that I'd ever compete at this level but are there any certain barrel makes that seem to take the prizes at the Quigley or is it mostly random or shooter/barrel combos, etc?

Thanks much guys,

-Ron
  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #13 - Jul 7th, 2023 at 10:31pm
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Quigley, there's no barrel or equipment preference, it's not a precision match.  Shooter and more particularly spotter skill are a big factor in placing well; and luck of the draw on when you shoot on a target really comes into play.  The random elements mask any barrel advantage.

The targets are big and easy to hit.  The wind is unstable and hard to call, and can get downright brutal at times.  Any 2 moa gun can win at Quigley without difficulty with good shooter/spotter and a lucky shooting slot on each target.  Conversely, a 1/2 moa gun would definitely help, but would not "buy" a win.
  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #14 - Jul 8th, 2023 at 9:52am
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Well said, Dave.

Keep on  hav'n fun!
MikeT
  
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ScrapMetal
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #15 - Jul 11th, 2023 at 1:18am
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Thank you Dave.  I've never really looked at the long range competitions like that and it certainly puts me in a different mindset on how to approach building a rifle.

I've got to admit though that it also gives me a bit of anxiety.  Why?  Well I, for the vast majority of the time, shoot alone.  No shooting buddies (ie. no spotters), etc.  If I asked her to my wife would try but she would struggle at best.  It won't stop me from making or shooting though, I just have to temper my expectations a bit.  I just enjoy shooting.

I see that BRC is offering "choked barrels".  Does it help?  I guess I don't understand the reasoning very well.  How does deforming the bullet even more before leaving the barrel result in better accuracy?

FWIW - The next week and half my schedule is going to be very chaotic so if I don't answer back right away, I am sorry.

ssdave - I did see your note about the barrel and I've got it under consideration.  It might take me a bit to get "my ducks in a row" here so if you have the opportunity please go ahead.  If I do decide for it I'll let you know and if it's too late, well, that's on me.  Thank you.

Best regards,

-Ron

  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #16 - Jul 11th, 2023 at 7:05am
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BRC are also good barrels. I believe they are also point cut rifling like RKS barrels.

Accuracy is affected by different amounts of gas cutting around the bullet which results in a variation of velocities between bullets plus the gas cutting will erode some of the lead causing it to stick to the barrel which we call leading.
The lead fouled barrel will affect the bullet's flight.

We use bullets wider than the barrel's groove-to-grove diameter to get a good seal which prevents the gases from cutting around the bullet.

Choking continues to produce a seal around the bullet in case any gases have started to squeeze around the bullet in travel down the barrel.

Reduced lead fouling plus consistent gas pressures results in better accuracy which is helped by choking that better ensures a well sealed bullet base as it travels the length of the barrel.

I have seen many wife spotter teams that work very well. It is simply a matter of giving it a try and other shooters will help you develop at every shoot you both attend. And as a couple you will develop long life friendships with many of the other couples who always attend the shoots. 

You both will really enjoy it.
Frequently the wife ends up wanting her own rifle too.

DEADEYE would you like to comment about how your wife shooting partnership developed.
« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2023 at 7:14am by Schuetzendave »  
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ScrapMetal
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #17 - Mar 31st, 2024 at 1:21pm
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Dave,

My reply is about 9 months late but I still wanted to say thanks for your post, especially the "choking" explanation.  That will really come in handy.

Best regards,

-Ron
  
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Re: Need some barrel advice on a new build
Reply #18 - Apr 5th, 2024 at 6:30pm
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Another vote for RKS barrels. Ron made a .40 caliber gain twist for me in SS and it chambered in .40-65. Just starting to work up a PP load and it’s showing promise, photo below. Another choice is Rice barrels in NC. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links).
Cheers Richard
  
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