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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast + (Read 1920 times)
RSW
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Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Mar 10th, 2022 at 8:46pm
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The recent thread about shooting bullets in the order cast got me thinking. Some may assume that shooting in the order cast, sorting them by weight, or ensuring they have nice square bases with sharp clean edges solves all their accuracy woes. Only problem is, that ain’t so. There is no single thing that is the “silver bullet” to achieving fine accuracy with cast bullets. Fine accuracy is not dependent on only one thing, it’s EVERYTHING. The list is long but involves things such as:
Quality of your rifle
condition of bore
trigger
sights
stocks
tension of the screws holding on the stocks
bullets & alloy
primers
cartridge cases
powder
bench rest (or offhand) technique
time devoted to practice
to name just a few.
It’s a self laid trap to think that “if I could just find the right primer, this rifle would put ‘em all into one hole”. Let’s say you have a rifle (Schuetzen) that, with decent range conditions shoots 200 yard groups of 2”. Now let’s say you think your rifle should be producing 1” groups at that distance because you’ve done it on occasion. Good on ya. You are probably right. What would it take, you’re thinking, to make groups like that on a regular basis? Here’s my take on it. However much effort you have been putting into casting, loading & shooting, it will take about twice as much effort to consistently cut 1/2” off your group size. To consistently shoot into 1”, you need to double your efforts again. The guys that always seem to beat the pants of their competition earn it. They are not only good shots, they practice but also put in the effort to consistently get the most out of their loads, bullets, range gear and rifles. For instance, if you have determined that a different bullet would get better accuracy, you buy it.
Most of us shoot this cast bullet game because we enjoy it. I know I do. But to be someone who can pound out 250s several times a year takes a lot of effort. If you doubt my words, contact John Louis here on this forum. He and several others in that gang in California are REALLY serious bench rest shooters. Why are they so good? Ask them, perhaps they will tell you how much effort it takes.
All this is my opinion but based on a lot of years in the Schuetzen game. Most of this stuff becomes self evident over time but I thought I would throw it out here anyway. Each of us do not have to re-invent the wheel on our own to get our rifles to shoot accurately. That’s why books are written and why this forum remains active.
  

Randy W
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Green_Frog
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 9:31pm
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Agreed.  It’s not a matter of doing one thing right, it’s a matter of doing everything as close to the same as possible.  IIRC, Lucian Cary quoted Harry Pope as saying just about the same thing about building the best barrel.  There is no “magic bullet” is there?

Froggie
  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 11:45pm
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Froggie,

I disagree with the 'magic bullet' theory that you put forward.  I know for a fact that the guy on the next bench who is beating me has the true magic bullet.  

Jack
  

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 11:46pm
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BP,

John Scharf has the magic bullet mould.  Look at his scores the last two years.

Rich
  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #4 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 11:50pm
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Rich,

I have one of his molds and I am gunning for him this match season.  John has evolved into a formidable opponent and is one of the nicest guys you will ever run across.

Jack
  

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #5 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 6:12am
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I think it's a matter of doing the right things the same. 


Green_Frog wrote on Mar 10th, 2022 at 9:31pm:
Agreed.  It’s not a matter of doing one thing right, it’s a matter of doing everything as close to the same as possible.  IIRC, Lucian Cary quoted Harry Pope as saying just about the same thing about building the best barrel.  There is no “magic bullet” is there?

Froggie

  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #6 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 6:30am
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Remembering back when I first got started. I did everything as perfectly as I could and exactly the same each time. Trouble was I didn't have the best bullet or barrel. It took a few years of accumulation and experience to make a real improvement. 

Used to go to the range with one rifle and one type of bullet and try all I knew to make it work.
Lots of frustration was the result. The fun I had offset the frustration.
  

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #7 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 7:11am
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Agreed, no magic bullets. There are, however, magic primers. And I aim to find them.

Thanks Randy for that dose of reality. The devil truly is in the details.
  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 9:06am
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Comparing one piece of equipment to another can show if one is more capable and accurate. 

There is no perfect bullet but we have proven one type of bullet is better than another one through proper testing.

Same with bullet length, barrel twists, nose shapes, base edges and bullet centers of gravity all vary and one will out preform the other through testing. 

Of course there is a variety of variables that need to be tested to enable you to consistently improve the performance of your accuracy.

However your testing success is also dependent on refining your bench technique and your ability to read the wind  changes.

Of course the performance of your rifle load can change with variations in temperature, atmospheric pressure, elevation and humidity.

So successful testing under certain environmental conditions may not hold true on different days. 

Advice Paul Jones gave me years ago about selecting the perfect bullet was:

Spitzer bullets are less wind sensitive but only at short yardage (200 to 300 yards).

Spitzer bullets have center of gravity too far back and will not stabilize over long yardage (1,000 yards) so you need a blunter nosed bullet with the center of gravity further forward to stabilize over long distances. i.e. Creedmore, Elliptical, Round Nose, Postell.

The heavier the bullet the less wind sensitive it is plus it has greater Kinetic Energy and will travel further distances than a lighter bullet.

Of course the high power shooters reduce the bullets sensitivity to wind by increasing velocity so it is exposed to the wind for a shorter time. Therefore they get away with using lighter bullets.

However cast bullets will foul barrels at high velocities so a heavier bullet with enough twist to shoot that length of bullet is preferred where a Spitzer may be better at short distances.

Ron Smith advised me the necessity of selecting the proper twist of barrel for your bullet length to meet any change in environmental conditions - even if others have shown success on occasion outside the specified zone for gyroscopic stability.

The Don Miller program has been successful in evaluating cast bullet gyroscopic stability.

However the dynamic stability which is affected by center of gravity of the bullet and by nose shape is best tested by firing groups to verify. 

Unfortunately some programs designed for high velocity rifles are being used for evaluations when they were never designed for the slower moving cast bullets with different nose shape
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2022 at 9:39am by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 10:14am
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All good points Dave and if memory serves me right lead bullets use a G1. Also not so sure if this is being used in the various stability calculators for lead bullet use. Or possibly not being put into the program on the users end.
  

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #10 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 1:04pm
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Randy, 
Thanx for starting this thread. As much as it hurts, I needed to hear this. Thanx all.
  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #11 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 10:43pm
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it's ok, SBoomer.  Those cuts and bruises will eventually heal.

Rich

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #12 - Mar 12th, 2022 at 10:09am
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The trap we all fall into is there is some magic thing that will finally put us over the top. It's a new bullet or a different lube, or a new primer something. The truth is the one thing that will help the most is the thing we ignore, practice! as the man once said the more, I practice the luckier I get. Or as Shakespear put it the fault isn't in our stars it's in ourselves.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #13 - Mar 12th, 2022 at 10:32am
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So true 40Rod!
Also beware of he who only shoots one rifle. I have been doing this since 1998 with a few in between to experiment with. In regards to practice it would be at least once a week and year round for myself. Same bullet, primers and powder were used if still available. Practice outings were to learn to read and to be able to compensate for the various conditions. After practice was done for the day I would also do various types of extensive experimentation. These outings also developed a tremendous amount of muscle memory. I also do not believe in luck but hard work, dedication and countless hours out at the range. That is what makes a very competitive competitor and there is no luck involved just hard earned skills. I also feel that one also has to set some real high personal goals to reach. Once I reached one another higher goal would be set and I have always completed with a Traditional rifle a CPA Schuetzen Junior that I bought back in 1998 and I still shoot. Or one of the same traditional design when experimenting with something else.
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2022 at 10:49am by JLouis »  

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Re: Thoughts on shooting bullets in order cast +
Reply #14 - Mar 12th, 2022 at 1:48pm
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You can't buy X's........
  
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