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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action (Read 6906 times)
hepburnman
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Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Mar 26th, 2015 at 7:58am
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What are the schools of thought on how tight a barrel's tenon thread should be with the action's thread on a Highwall for best accuracy? I have heard different stories that this fit should be somewhat loose and others that this fit should be fairly tight requiring a fair amount of effort to initially screw the action onto the barrel before final torquing. Also, is there possibly a particular degree of off-set, from initial barrel shoulder-to-action face lockup, before the final alignment when using an action wrench? I have heard torque values of anywhere from 50 to 100 ft-lbs but would prefer a degree value of say, 25 degrees, before final torquing of the action to the barrel. I prefer a degree-value because final torquing must be done in a vise because if performed in my lathe it would disturb the set-up here. And, to include one question, does the barrel-to-block clearance shrink at all when doing the final torquing of the action onto the barrel, from initial hand-tight, and by how much?
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #1 - Mar 26th, 2015 at 9:46am
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First, for your headspace; choose the brass you're going to use and measure the rim thickness in 4 or five different spots on several rounds.  You can then set your rim depth at the maximum measurement that you find.  There are also standards for rim depth with many cartridges. For example, the 45-70 is .070".  Then give your breechblock/barrel fit .002-.003" clearance.  Everybody though will have their own ideas about this but as Chuckster mentioned, you can have zero on the barrel/breechblock but if your rimcut is too deep, you're going to have a headspace problem.
As far as tightening up the barrel, Winchester used to set them up so that you had to use a wrench the last 3/8 of an inch.  Another good smith that I know has a different idea though and that is to have it snug just the last 1/8 of an inch and then uses blue locktite.  He feels that he does not want to put stress on the receiver and his rifles do shoot.  If you're doing this yourself, pay particular attention to your chamber.  Have the correct fitting floating pilot and dead nuts zero through the headstock.  If not, you could end up with an out of round chamber.
Now take this all for what it's worth, as I am not a gunsmith but I have listened to a couple of good ones discussing this while standing around at the shoots.  Hope this helps.  Bob
  
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hepburnman
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #2 - Mar 26th, 2015 at 11:14am
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Hi Old-Win- I am doing my own barrel threading and chambering thru the head-stock and I am indicating the throat and using a floating reamer holder. My results so far have been good (real good).
  
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John Taylor
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #3 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 9:00am
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I like to set them up tight, maybe 1/16 of a turn. But I have noticed on bolt actions that when setting the barrel tight that the chamber will shrink a little under the threaded area. This comes up when setting the head space as I allow the last .005" to be cut after the barrel is screws into the action and notice the sides of the reamer will take a little out. When doing rifles without much shoulder on the barrel like a 94 Winchester with an octagon barrel it is a good idea to have very close fitting threads. If you try for 100 pounds of toque the shoulder will be gone.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #4 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 10:24am
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As I understood the original question, it was whether the barrel thread should be so large as to require significant torque from the start of the threads.  Personally I'm pretty ignorant about Winchesters, but a couple of taken-off aftermarket barrels I have are sufficiently tight that I cannot screw the barrels into a bare High Wall action by hand beyond 2-3 turns.   

This make me think that trying to specify a final torque value is meaningless, and the angle method would have to be used.   
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #5 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 1:07pm
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Here are sme things to remember regarding threads (all threads):

1. If you use a interferance, thread fit, you take a chance on thread galling. No clearance = no lubrication. The only lube that will remain is that on the rougness of the machined surface and what ever mis-match there is in the thread angle. Niether are good options.

2. If your looking for surface area contact, you won't get it. The thread will always be loaded on one side once there is any torque applied. Even if you where to use a interference fit, both sides of the thread can't have even contact pressure.

3. If your trying to keep the barrel centered as well as possible, it won't matter, because the thread angle will cause the thread to center itself.

For myself, regarding torque, I use a 15" lever and tighten so that I know it won't hurt or distort the action frame. I also want it to come back off w/o hurting anything. My guess at the torque that I use is 40 - 50 ft lb.

Frank
  

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FITZ
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #6 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 1:13pm
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Model1885s are one of my favorites for rebuilding or restoring. One reason has to do with how well Winchester fitted their barrels. In the solid frame actions with original barrels the barrel will screw up quite easily by hand to within about 1/8" from the index mark between the barrel and receiver. You then will need a Barrel vice and Action wrench to pull then index lines into place, it will be beyond hand tight. Not sure of the tourque but it is not excessive. At this point all is usually well. The sights are on top and square to the receiver. The extractor cut to the chamber is right where it belongs and the extractor fits and works correctly. The headspace for most is about .002/.003 measured with shim stock behind a cartridge in the chamber. More next on Takedowns. Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #7 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 1:29pm
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Now Takedowns. The Winchester Takedown system is well done. I suspect that many if not all Takedowns were finished in the Custom shop. I have mixed Takedown Barrels as they came into as many as three different actions and with the exception of having the correct Extractor they all went together by Hand as they were supposed to. There is however a Takeup system for adjusting the tightness of the fit. It is sensitive, if you get crazy the fit will show it. Now I make no claim that a Takedown Hiwall will be competitive in serious bench rest shooting. But in Offhand completion with the rifle in good order and a good load they will shoot better than most if not all Offhand shooters. Their is no need for action wrenches
or vices to take them down and or assemble them. I own two schuetzen and three sporting Takedown rifles and they work fine. This is my view and observation in over 50 years of actively chasing and following M1885s. Some with experience.
I have one Hiwall in which nothing fits right. It was rebarreled by CC Johnson around 1953 to .222 Remington and I believe he re threaded the receiver as no other Hiwall barrel I have will
screw into it anywhere near correct. HTH. Regards, FITZ Smiley
  

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hepburnman
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #8 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 2:45pm
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Hi John- My barrel is #4 Winchester and octagon. 1/16 of a turn works out to about 22.5 degrees so I guess I was pretty close with estimating that my action should rotate about 25 degrees after tightening it on hand-tight. You were saying that the tenon actually shorts when doing the final torque-up? I was thinking that it might actually lengthen a small amount and reduce the barrel-to-breech block gap. It would be good if I can estimate how much this gap changes so that I dont have to remove the barrel from the lathe to do the final torque-up in a vise to determine this gap.
  
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hepburnman
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #9 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 2:58pm
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Oldtimer- You are correct in that one of the thread-fits that I mentioned, that I had heard was good to use, was one where the thread-fit was so tight that, to initially screw the action on by hand, required a fair bit of effort by hand. This is as opposed to a thread-fit where the action screws on easily and you can lift the back of the action up and down slightly before the action's face meets up with the barrel shoulder. My next question was about how much final torque/degrees of rotation was best for the final clocking-alignment of the action to the barrel. Other's comments so far have been that this can vary from 1/8" to 3/8". I think this may translate to 5 degrees to about 23 degrees of final rotation.
  
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John Taylor
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #10 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 6:23pm
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hepburnman wrote on Mar 27th, 2015 at 2:45pm:
Hi John-  You were saying that the tenon actually shorts when doing the final torque-up? I was thinking that it might actually lengthen a small amount and reduce the barrel-to-breech block gap. It would be good if I can estimate how much this gap changes so that I dont have to remove the barrel from the lathe to do the final torque-up in a vise to determine this gap.


I wasn't talking about the shank stretching, which it does a small amount, but the chamber bore will be smaller where the threads are because of the 60 degree thread. I have only noticed it on bolt action guns where I run the reamer in after the barrel is torqued to the frame. 
  

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Chuckster
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Re: Highwall Barrel Thread-Fit and Torque with Action
Reply #11 - Mar 27th, 2015 at 11:06pm
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The least area of metal is usually the shoulder of the barrel shank and the corresponding spot on the receiver. Would expect it to compress somewhat when the barrel is torqued in place and reduce the barrel to block clearance. Have read to allow .002" compression, but think this is for bolt actions as John suggests.
Chuck
  
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