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Seanmp
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Restoration question
Mar 6th, 2015 at 9:53pm
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I've just acquired a really nice, very shootable, Belgium SXS. Yes I know it's not strictly a single shot but there are some knowledgeable opinions here that I would respect hearing from.

I was essentially given the gun because it's covered in speckles of white paint. I have a bit of a reputation locally for treating guns with respect and being fanatical about restoring them properly. So when an elderly friend of mine passed I inherited the Belgium with the caveat that I bring it back to life.

It is not a Damascus and the bores are mirror perfect. By overlaying the proof stamps and proof holder stamp I've narrowed the date to 1911-1922.

The quandary is thus. The gun is completely covered in a spirit varnish. It has even been very thinly laid on the barrels. And its not a great spirit varnish. Everything including distilled water on a cotton swab is disturbing it. Obviously I'd like the freckles gone but that seems to be impossible without ruining the patina of the spirit varnish.

Whats the right thing to do here? Accept the thousand freckle of white paint as part of the history. Or remove the freckles and French Polish a new coat of spirit varnish. Or throw all in and do a complete restoration?

The colour case on the receiver and locks is quite nice in spots. There is some very bright blues and yellows around the hammers. The varnish patina is almost completely obscuring it and my lighting does no justice to the areas that can be seen
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2015 at 10:57pm by Seanmp »  

Sean
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harry_eales
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #1 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 3:13am
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Hello Seanmp,
You probably already know this, but what you have appears to be a shotgun produced in Belgium in the period 1890-1920. It's the sort of shotgun bought in and sold by the thousands all over the North American Continent by Hardware and or General stores mainly in the 10-20 Dollar price range. It isn't a quality shotgun as I think you already know or suspect. Evidence of this is the soft materials used, see the 'boogered' hammer screws and the mushroomed heads on the firing pins. The engraving is, so to speak, far from being good quality.  Sad

I think that a previous owner was just too lazy to give it a regular oiling on the stock and the metal parts and thought he would save himself further trouble by just varnishing it all over. The same person or another, thought so highly of it he couldn't be bothered to even move it whist decorating, hence the paint.

I'd take it apart and remove the varnish, peen the metal back into place on the hammer screws, reshape the slots and harden them, remove the mushrooming from the firing pins, correct the shape and harden them as well. Notice the hinge pin? it's rotated out of position, something else to correct there. 

Refinish the stock with oil or varnish, keeping it off the metal. If necessary re-blue the barrels but don't hot dip them whatever you do or you'll have a major problem soldering all the barrel parts together again.  Cry

I'm not being critical, or running your shotgun down, it's just my honest opinion. However, you could ask here:-

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There are a number of shotgun restorers there. So don't just take my word for it, ask around.
Good luck with it.

Harry
  
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Seanmp
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #2 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 7:43am
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Thanks Harry

Thats more or less what I wanted to hear. Yes I knew I had an "Export" gun. From what I can glean from the texts it is one of the nicer models. As I said it's a nice, very shootable Belgian.

I didnt mention that my friend that passed was a firearms dealer and I have a business relationship with his shop in that I do all his repairs and refurbs on European and English air rifles.

Ill do everything you say and reblue the tubes. There is no damage to the bluing but it seems thin. And I have a really nice Belgium Express formula that has given perfect results in the past when overbluing belgium and Italian tubes.

Im not convinced the spirit varnish isnt original though. If its not then the person who applied it knew their stuff. The application is flawless but its just not a very good product. I'm guessing its shellac and Gum resin or Shellac and rosin
  

Sean
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Chuckster
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 10:15am
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It is possible it was varnished at the factory to make it shine in the showroom; would save on polishing. Varnish may be a lifesaver to make the paint easier to remove.
Chuck
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #4 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 10:34am
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As much as Americans avoid restoration, and attempt to save patina; the Europeans are just the opposite. In fact many gun makers recommended returning firearms to the maker every 5 years or so for freshening up. It's not uncommon for nice guns to be refinished multiple times, and is considered part of retaining their fine appearance.
Granted your Belgian isn't a fine European piece, but if properly refinished, it wont hurt it's value at all. It might not be worth a huge amount either way, but I'd sure like it better with all the white paint off it, and if that meant losing whatever is on the metal, I'd be fine with that too.
  

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Seanmp
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #5 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 11:49am
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Excellent excellent.

It's real value is what it will mean to me over my shoulder grouse hunting this fall. I've already have brass casings on their way.
I will have to brush up my technique and see if I can get some colour on those screws when I harden them. I've only had limited success with small parts.

Marlinguy
It's funny you mention that distinction between North American and Europeans. An acquintance of mine who was a gunsmith all his life and in his retirement only restores English fowlers. He has no compunction stripping, boiling rebluing anything. And his finished guns sell at the 10K mark.

He's the fellow that supplies me my express blue at the low price of $18 an oz

  

Sean
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #6 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 5:54pm
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If I remember my George Grotz furniture restoration books, you can renew or remove "spirit varnish" (i.e., shellac) with a rag dampened with alcohol. A light polishing is supposed to redistribute the shellac over any crazing or water whitening it might have suffered. Heavier rubbing and more alcohol will remove it entirely, and new shellac chips can be dissolved in alcohol and the mixture painted or rubbed on later.

An oil finish is somewhat more permanent, as the linseed or tung oil polymerizes upon oxidation by air. The "London finish" was supposed to be a mixture of the linseed oil and shellac, rubbed into the wood and the oil and shellac solution layers kept mixed by constant stirring.

The only time I tried to restore a spirit varnish finish was on an Eastlake bed headboard and footboard. The crazing did not go away, so I just took it all up with rags, alcohol, Q-tips, more alcohol, toothpicks and still more alcohol. (I needed some myself, when that job was over--the last 10% of the coverage took longer to get out of the carving than the 90% off the flat surfaces.) You might need the toothpicks to get the shellac out of the checkering but the rest of the job ought to go pretty easily, if it is really spirit varnish.

I would recommend total removal of the shellac and doing the wood over with Lin-Speed or Tru-Oil. Shellac is not an "outdoor finish" and doesn't last very well even indoors. The old timers liked it on furniture because it was cheap and quickly applied.
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2015 at 4:43pm by Bent_Ramrod »  
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Seanmp
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #7 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 9:11pm
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Bent_Ramrod wrote on Mar 7th, 2015 at 5:54pm:
If I remember my George Grotz furniture restoration books, you can renew or remove "spirit varnish" (i.e., shellac) with a rag dampened with alcohol. 

I would recommend total removal of the shellac and doing the wood over with Lin-Speed or Tru-Oil.

Yes it's truly a spirit varnish.  I'm working on the barrels right now and denatured Alcohol is washing the finish off with ease. I have disassembled some pieces and because the spirit varnish is a continuous coat it has caused flaking on the separation edge. The finish will have to be dissolved or re suspended with alcohol.
Now I'm using the term Spirit varnish as differentiated from pure shellac. Spirit varnishes can be very robust depending on what other resins were blended with the shellac to make the varnish. But this one is made up from the poorer resins I'm afraid.
That being said I'm going to wash it off entirely with alcohol and put on a London Oil finish. I did know that the London Finish is traditionally a mixture of linseed oil and a varnish "resin" I havent ever read exactly what resin I just assumed that each maker would have a personal concoction.
The one I use is "Tried and True Varnish oil" Its a pure cold pressed linseed with sandarac and venice turp resin. It's made in the historic way with no chemical or metallic driers. Its absolutely non toxic. The only reason I use that one in particular is I like their mantra and its available from Lee Valley. To that I add 50% by volume of powdered alkanet root by filling an 8oz brown lab bottle half full with alkanet and topping it with the Tried and True Oil. This just gets turned daily for several weeks then I decant the now "Red Root Oil" into a 4oz brown bottle. This is enough oil for many many stocks. As I said though it has no driers. So it's helpful to stimulate it with strong UV light
  

Sean
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harry_eales
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 3:10pm
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Sean,
Just an afterthought but I would check the underside of the barrels and the water table to see if there are any Proof Marks, if they are they will indicate as to whether it was Proofed for Black Powder or Nitro. Remember that the early Nitro Powders are not duplicated by the modern powders of today. If at all in doubt,  Undecided use BP. If nothing else, it makes for more fun shooting. Wink

Harry
  
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Seanmp
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 3:56pm
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Quote:
Sean,
Just an afterthought but I would check the underside of the barrels and the water table to see if there are any Proof Marks, if they are they will indicate as to whether it was Proofed for Black Powder or Nitro. Remember that the early Nitro Powders are not duplicated by the modern powders of today. If at all in doubt,  Undecided use BP. If nothing else, it makes for more fun shooting. Wink
Harry

Yup I went through the marks with a fine tooth comb and the manuscript of proof marks from the DoubleGun ppl

It's proofed for Black. Actually it has that weird proof mark that only existed for a couple years that means "at least" or " at a minimum"

In truth I have no intentions of ever shooting it with anything but black. I purchase new guns based on whether or not I can shoot them with black. That being, in my totally unesteemed opinion, the holiest of hole makers Smiley

I now only need to find a nice 20ga to round out the stable of 2 1/2" chambered fowlers.
  

Sean
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #10 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 12:06am
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That hinge pin may have been rotated to tighten up the action from wear?
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 4:27am
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sakoman wrote on Mar 15th, 2015 at 12:06am:
That hinge pin may have been rotated to tighten up the action from wear?


That's a certainly a possibility Sakoman, but it could also be with the apparent lack of care taken by the previous owner(s) that the hinge pin has locked itself to the hinge by corrosion. Sean will soon find out if he doesn't already know. Undecided

Harry
  
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Seanmp
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 8:22am
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There is no wear on the pin. No evidence of corrosion either. The funny thing about this gun is the is no evidence of wear anywhere except the tiny amount of brightening on the thumb lever. Other than that there is a lack of handling wear.
The bores appear, upon examination with a scope, that they have never seen a shot load through them. They are mirror bright and the honing looks like it was done yesterday.

The only anomaly is the peening on the firing pins.

For all intents this piece looks like it adorned the wall for a century.
  

Sean
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 9:04am
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Shotgun shooters are far more tolerant than American gun collectors when it comes to re-finish.  Look at my Parker 10 G hammer gun photos in our off topic section. Gun had good wood metal poorly refinished many years ago. Stock re-finished checkering recut it's likely to resell for more than its purchase price 

It's not likely to resell for more  than purchase price and cost of the re finish job.   Caution here is if the refurbishment is not well done it cuts salability to near zero. Condition of the barrels is a key. Thin to start they don't have much metal to work with polishing out or honing. Many are too thin from over polishing 

I bought my 10 to shoot and sounds like that's your plan for that nice hammer gun.  Personally I won't walk up to the line with something that looks like it came out of the attic. Clean it up and shoot.
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2015 at 11:27am by boats »  
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Re: Restoration question
Reply #14 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 11:26am
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Most shotgun barrels in your guns period were made from Belgium tubes. Forged in Leige, Imported as blanks finished by the maker marked on the barrels. English or American, started on the Continent.

Of course the Belgiuns made all qualities low to high.

Boats
  
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