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drinks
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#4 RB extractor operation
Sep 4th, 2013 at 1:16pm
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I have converted a #4 RB from .32 RF to .32-20, everything went fine, the rifle shoots well and is a pleasure to shoot.
The extractor is the only problem, It does not operate when the block is pulled back.
It is undamaged and snaps back with the block out of the action, so the spring is ok, I hope the problem is just that I do not know some special detail about the assembly of the parts, something such as  having to hold the trigger back or pushing the trigger forward, hammer in place, hammer dropped, hammer at half cock, full cock, or some other detail.
While I had the reamer rented, I chambered a 17" .311 barrel which I hope to make into a ss of my own design and chambered an 8" piece of the .311 barrel into an insert fot 20ga, so my short topper with the red dot is now a .32-20 ss, too.
It shoots well, I just need to see how well.
I hope someone here can tell me what I am doing/ not doing correctly when I reassemble the action.
Thanks for all help.
  
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RJM
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #1 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 7:44pm
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Your #4 in 32-20 is a dangerous idea. Much too weak an action, even the non-takedown threaded actions. 
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Ron
  
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Redsetter
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #2 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 8:22pm
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RJM wrote on Sep 4th, 2013 at 7:44pm:
Your #4 in 32-20 is a dangerous idea.


I should think so, too, but what would be the first unmistakable signs of "trouble"?  Stretched cases due to flexing of the block?

.32 S&W Long would have made a far better conversion choice.
  
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drinks
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 10:35pm
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As you had nothing helpful to say about my problem, why did you post?
  
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ssdave
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 11:45pm
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Quote:
As you had nothing helpful to say about my problem, why did you post?


It may not be what you wanted to hear, but the previous posters had extremely helpful information:  your rifle as you have assembled it is not safe to use.  Can't be much more helpful information than that.  If it saves you or a bystander from injury, it should be invaluable to you.  If you choose to ignore it, of course it will be unhelpful information.

Now, on the extractor operation, looking at the relationship of the parts should indicate why it doesn't operate.  Comparing to the drawings in De Haas' "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" should show if you have anything broken or missing.

  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #5 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 3:14pm
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Does it extract a dummy shell OK?  Or is this a function that doesn't work with a shell that's been fired?  There is not much leverage on that little extractor on the #4.

If the latter, it is definitely a signal that you are overstressing your action.  Standard .32-20 loads will expand the base noticeably in the average chamber.  A little flexing on those stingy little screws that hold the #4 block and hammer, and flexing back when the bullet exits and the pressure drops, will wedge the shell into the chamber and make extraction hard in the absence of any camming action.  This was the first warning in Winchester 94s in .30-30 that the pressure was over what the action was supposed to handle, and of course Single Action revolvers also have hard extraction as a red line.
  
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drinks
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:03pm
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BR, it does not operate at all, even with no case in the chamber.
I have carefully looked at 3 exploded drawings of the action, every piece appears to be intact, nothing missing or bent, so far as I can tell
With the block out of the action, the extractor will operate with a firm snap by depressing the end of the extractor.
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 8:08pm
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The three blade spring on my #4 keeps the block against the breech, or down, keeps the trigger in the sear notch and provides the snap in the extractor once the block impinges on the little tail of the extractor.  If one of these blades is broken, the function it controls will fail.  With mine, it was the blade that controlled the breech block.  But even without the spring, the extractor should pull out as you pull the breech block open.  The pin that holds in the firing pin should hit the tail of the extractor when you open the block.

There is somebody who advertises those springs in Single Shot Exchange.  I don't have any copies of the publication here though, so I don't know who he is.
  
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drinks
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 8:22pm
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BR, thank you, I shall look at that tomorrow.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #9 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 10:27pm
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If the extractor doesn't move at all, my guess is that the lower part of it is bent or the pivot pin is bent. It pivots on a small cross pin and the lower part of the breech block makes contact with lower part the extractor to pivot it back.

At least, that's how it looks on mine.

Frank
  

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John Taylor
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #10 - Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:12pm
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I agree with the others on the 32-20 being to much for a #4. Odd but the 32S&W may be to much also. The 22LR has 953 pounds of bolt thrust, the 32 S&W has 1,483 and the 32-20 has 1,583. The screws that go through the hammer and breach will usually bend first and sometimes the breach block will break..
On the extractor issue, the pin could be bent or the bottom of the extractor worn away or bent. If you take the parts out and set them on the side of the action, insert the screw and pin and see how and where the parts meet you might find the problem. Wisner's has the three in one spring if you need a new one.
  

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drinks
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #11 - Sep 6th, 2013 at 5:03pm
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BR, you got it, the retaining pin would not work for the new firing pin, so I did not install it, using another method to locate and retain the firing pin. With the pin pressed in, the extractor works fine.
Thank you.
Now, for all those net nannies who are forecasting my imminent doom for having rechambered it to .32-20, I did so because I had brass, mold and dies on hand
I talked to 2 retired gunsmiths with many years experience in RBs, they told me it would be ok to go to .32-20, just keep the loads to less than 12000 cup, which was the maximum pressure of the .32 lrf.
I have access to several manuals and quickload, finding loads under 12000cup is not a problem.
A bunch of olympic class conclusion jumping has gone on.
I am 73, I have been casting and loading since 1955, I cast and load more than 25 cartridges,from .223 to .50-70 and .500 S&W mag. I have developed 3 wildcats, made reamers  and die sets for them, adapted the barrels to an action and shot them.
I hope to design and build an original design action, one that is easily made and will be safe with 50000-60000 cup loads.
The warnings were ok, the attitude of the first 2 was rude 
Politeness never hurts.
I am still thinking on what I want.
  
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RJM
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #12 - Sep 6th, 2013 at 7:08pm
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Drinks,
You've had 4 people tell you, not rudely but frankly, that a #4 in 32-20 is dangerous. Maybe not with your low pressure loads, but there are plenty of high speed factory loads out there that someone after you might just try to fire. At 73, I'm sure you can realize that none of us are here forever. I for one, would feel negligent if I did not point out a situation I consider dangerous. 

Could your rifle be a #2 rather than a #4? That could change the discussion completely. 
Regards,
Ron
  
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John Taylor
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #13 - Sep 6th, 2013 at 7:31pm
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I have this conversation with lots of customers wanting to hot rod an old gun. One guy wanted to go with a 50 BMG on an old 10 gauge action. When a person dies the gun gets passed down to a family member or sold at auction and then it becomes a problem.
  

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
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Re: #4 RB extractor operation
Reply #14 - Sep 6th, 2013 at 9:09pm
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This post has me wondering now about a cast action Ballard I want to rechamber from 32 rf/cf to 25/20 Win. When I posted about it I didn't really get a good answer. Mr Taylor is this a safe conversion or should I go with 32 S/W long? I already have a Stevens 44 in 22LR so don't really need another.

Thanks,
JHolland
  
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