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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) CPA Mainspring Effect On POA (Read 14182 times)
JackHughs
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #15 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 4:33pm
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I went out to the range for a bit of testing and observation this morning.

After a bit of thought, it's clear that the POA shift when the hammer is cocked is a design feature of the 44 1/2 action.

Setting aside the rest of the rifle, just envision the lower tang/trigger assembly with the mainspring attached to the far end of the lower tang.  If the free (front) end of the mainspring is pushed downward, the force applied to the free end creates a moment about the mainspring attachment point that tries to bend the the lower tang upward.

Going back to the complete rifle: when the hammer is cocked, a downward force is applied to the front end of the mainspring.  This causes the lower tang to bend upward.  As the lower tang bends upward, the rear of the buttstock moves upward while the front of the buttstock droops.  This movement - only a few thousandths - causes the POA (crosshairs) to move upward. 

When the hammer is released, the force on the front end is relieved and the lower tang and buttstock return to their rest position.  This return to the rest position happens while the hammer is falling toward the firing pin.

If the return to rest is perfectly consistent from shot-to-shot, the POA shift will have no effect on POI.  However, if the return to rest is not consistent, then vertical stringing is likely to occur. 

Attached is a fairly typical 10-shot group from this rifle.  The upper 7 shots have a vertical dispersion of 5/16".  the lower 3 shots have a vertical dispersion of 5/16".  The distance between the upper and lower groups is the same as the POA shift caused by cocking the hammer.

Cause and effect? Maybe.

JackHughs

  

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boats
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #16 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 5:30pm
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Jack not being a bench shooter am not quite following what the issue is.  Seems to me if the Rifle's sights are aligned and hammer fall to ignition to bullet leaving the barrel is consistent it's all you can ask the rifle to do. 

If the issue is does the rifle stay aligned hammer down to hammer cocked I doubt if any gun can stay aligned in a free standing bench rest while the action is being cycled, Bolt, Auto or Single shot

While the action could flex It's more likely the movement is in the rest than anything else.

Going back to my small bore prone days it was essential to re-set after every shot no matter how small the movement after the rifle was fired. If re-set and aligned properly I could shoot smaller groups prone with a sling than I could from a rest. Reason is the rest allowed movement, so did the prone with sling, however re-setting every shot prone was more consistent than my bench shooting & lack of bench Skills.

Here is your quote

"If the return to rest is perfectly consistent from shot-to-shot, the POA shift will have no effect on POI.  However, if the return to rest is not consistent, then vertical stringing is likely to occur." 

All sorts of things going on when the rifle is fired, if they go on the same way every shot it's a non issue. Or so it seems to me

Boats
  
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JackHughs
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #17 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:13pm
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boats wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 5:30pm:
While the action could flex It's more likely the movement is in the rest than anything else.

Here is your quote

"If the return to rest is perfectly consistent from shot-to-shot, the POA shift will have no effect on POI.  However, if the return to rest is not consistent, then vertical stringing is likely to occur." 

All sorts of things going on when the rifle is fired, if they go on the same way every shot it's a non issue. Or so it seems to me
Boats


Hi Boats,

In this case, I'm satisfied that the lower tang is flexing upward when the hammer is cocked and that the lower tang then "returns to position" when the hammer is released.  This "return to position" movement takes place between the time the hammer is released and the time the hammer strikes the firing pin.  This movement results in a POA shift before the rifle fires.

Whether or not this POA shift is causing inconsistent vertical is by no means certain.  For me, it's something to consider and try to minimize if possible.  I'm thinkin' that maybe a lighter mainspring is in order.

JackHughs   



  

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BP
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #18 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 10:52pm
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Is the lower tang actually flexing, or is the lower tang rotating slightly relative to the frame?

  

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JLouis
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #19 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:09pm
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I believe it is the interface of the stock and the reciever, the through bolt design does not leave enough wood / contact surface to provide the required support needed to eleminate the least amount of movement / flex. There is nothing there to provide full support to the tangs. I have seen several that when looking along the sides of the top tang you can see day light all the way out the bottom as well as between the stock and action interface, this due to the back of tang needing to be set back a tad more. If you can achieve a 100% contact area on both cheeks of the stock it might help to minimize the flexing effects but by design I think it might not be possible to eliminate it.
« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:39pm by JLouis »  

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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #20 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:58pm
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I might add some record setting scores as well as record setting groups are being shot with the CPA through bolt system so those of you who own one don't let this conversation crawl into your head. I would recommend you taking a look at your butt stock bedding to insure that it is correct and to then head to the range to break some some of those records.
  

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boats
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #21 - Aug 31st, 2013 at 6:59am
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If I sit back and think about it.

You don't see falling block single shots in modern bench rest matches. Reason is the inherent flex in the two piece stock design. Two pieces meaning not only the wood how it's attached with tangs.

Other reason would be the difference in a V spring driven hammer falling in a mortice vs a coil spring driven striker working in a Round bolt.

These small but important design differences are  most often hidden in the variables with our cast bullets vs jacketed used in the modern matches.  Get close to maximum potential of the cast bullet the action starts to be the limit. 

Minimizing the inherent disadvantage is what makes a winning single shot rifle

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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #22 - Aug 31st, 2013 at 10:04am
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Boats,

How's the Falling Block Works different than the Ballard or Highwall?

Bruce
  

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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #23 - Aug 31st, 2013 at 10:47am
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"falling block" is a common name for all the falling block single shots. 

Boats
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:12pm by boats »  
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colo native
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #24 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 5:29pm
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I have 2  cpa rifles.  I dont use tang mounted sights.  So I tested both with an indicator to se if they flex,  mounted a last word on the barrel sight mount ,   walla..   1 moves the other dont..  the older is much harder to cock, the newer on is very light..  one reason to use barrel mounts for sights, eh..   it may cause vertical strings, eh..
  
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #25 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm
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colo native wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 5:29pm:
I have 2  cpa rifles.  I dont use tang mounted sights.  So I tested both with an indicator to se if they flex,  mounted a last word on the barrel sight mount ,   walla..   1 moves the other dont..  the older is much harder to cock, the newer on is very light..  one reason to use barrel mounts for sights, eh..   it may cause vertical strings, eh..


Hi,

Which one moved, the older or newer rifle?  My guess is that the harder to cock rifle showed some flex.  How much movement did you see?

Thanks

JackHughs
  

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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #26 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:43pm
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I'll  do it again, as time permits, maybe tue pm, wasn't but a few tho,  it was the older one with a verys stiff spring, that has to be set strong topop the caps, more to come.....
  
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John Boy
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #27 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 10:46pm
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You got me curious:  CPA #130 with a new 38-72 barrel I've not shot yet.  The distance was measured at the front of top tang screw to the the low tang:
1.7345 - hammer at rest
1.7230 - half cocked hammer
1.7745 - hammer full cocked
  
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JackHughs
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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #28 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 8:05pm
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This is progress report - of sorts.

I removed the original mainspring and compared it against several other CPA mainsprings.  The original spring  was a bit longer, a bit wider, a bit thicker, and quite a bit more arched than the comparison springs.  In other words, the original was very much "stiffer" than all the others.

This inspection confirmed the operating characteristics of the original spring.  For those unfamiliar with the 44 1/2 action, there is a set screw in the lower tang that can be used to add pre-load to the mainspring.  With the original spring installed and the set screw completely backed-out, it took two hands to pull the hammer into full-cock.  The hammer fell with sufficient force to fully puncture large pistol primers and would leave very deep craters in rifle primers. 

I replaced the original spring with one of the spares.  With the replacement spring installed and the set screw completely backed out, the hammer required very little effort to go into full-cock but did not have sufficient energy to fire a primer.

It required about 3/4 turn on the set screw to provide enough hammer force to consistently fire primers.  This spring setting did not puncture pistol primers.

So far, so good.  Or should I say "close, but no cigar."

Even with the lighter spring installed the POA still shifed upward when the hammer was cocked.  The shift was  less pronounced, but still sufficient to be troubling. 

And sadly, the rifle continues to print two really nice groups displaced vertically just about the same amount as the POA shift caused by cocking the hammer.

As I've said before, there may be no cause and effect relationship between the mainspring-related POA shift and the vertical grouping.  But, then again, there might be - so I'm going to mess with this a bit more. 

By the way, changing the mainspring did cure another pesky problem with this action but that's another story for another time. 

JackHughs   

  

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Re: CPA Mainspring Effect On POA
Reply #29 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 8:40pm
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Quote:
The hammer fell with sufficient force to fully puncture large pistol primers and would leave very deep craters in rifle primers.


I don't think it should punture a primer. It shouldn't extend more than 1/16th inch to do it's job unless the headspace is to much. My Borchardt only extends .050

Frank
  

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