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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1/20 vs ww (Read 11649 times)
shooter34488
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1/20 vs ww
Aug 14th, 2013 at 1:54pm
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  Let me first say I started out years ago casting bullets using a 1-25 mix, then for some reason I tried a 1-20 mix, had a little better accuracy but not that much.  I still use the 1-20 but I now have access to a large quantity of WW.  I had always heard that WW was harder and not suited to the type of shooting that we do.
  I guess my question is. Is WW harder or softer than 1-20 and is anyone using pure WW and with what results?

  Monte
  

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Elijah
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #1 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 2:34pm
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WW's is harder. The BHN value is about 12 and 1:20 approx. BHN10 depending on purity of the alloy. The only time I've used ww's is with smokeless ammo in pistols or if using H4198 or IMR3031 in the 38-55 Winchester. I prefer 1:20 or 1:30 in most all BPCR alloys as it will upset easily to seal the bore whether you're using 50 or 75 gr of BP. There are some that use 1:16. It depends on the rifle/bullet combination as to which may work best with a given rifle and load...just my 2 cents.
  
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #2 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 3:16pm
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Most old manuals recommend wheel weights, that's when they were made out of lead.  New Wheel Weights have so little lead the junk dealers won't even buy them.

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JLouis
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #3 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 3:20pm
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I spent a year exsperimenting with lead, tin, antimony alloys and was not able to reach any form of consistent success in regards to extreme accuracy. You would be better served to go to a harder lead and tin alloy, I found 1-16 to be the best for my use with spitzer bullets. You might need to go harder only your targets will tell.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #4 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 4:39pm
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If you can get the WW cheap, you might try this. Your hardess will be right in between 16 & 20/1 (10.44 bhn). It will make your lead and Tin go much farther, if expense is a issue. I now use only Tin/Lead alloys because I have a lot of Tin and I love the way it cast's. 

I've heard that some clip on WW's are now made of Zinc, if so, make sure you weed them out. Nothing contaminates Lead alloys like Zinc!!! They should be easy to find because they weight a lot less.

1 lb WW
1 lb lead
1/2 oz of Tin

           Tin = 1.65 %
Antimony = 1.48 %
        Lead = 96.87 %

Some people say WW or antimony will cause leading but, I've used Lyman #2 and 2% tin added to WW's and I haven't had a leading issue as long as the base of the bullet seals the barrel, the bands are no more than .090 long and you are using a good lube, such as Javlina Schuetzen, sold by one of our forum members.

That said, as John say's only the target will tell the difference. I've had good results though in low velocity 45/70 and 2000 fps GC loads.

Frank
  

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ssdave
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #5 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 4:56pm
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I don't have a wide enough experience to give a definitive answer.  I use 20:1 most of the time.  I have leading problems occasionally with that mix, and the molds I use.  It certainly isn't the magic mix to prevent leading.  I've probably had less leading with antimony mixes than with tin mixes.

My most accurate load/rifle I have ever had was when I had a large batch of wheel weight/tin/scrap alloy and was using a particular mold.  That was when I first started shooting blackpowder in my .45-90.  I shot that batch of lead for 3 or 4 years with great success and no leading problems.  It was mixed to about the same hardness as 20:1.  When I switched to 20:1, that bullet leaded horribly and wouldn't shoot accurately.  I switched molds to a custom mold ordered to cast 20:1 to the exact same size as my previous mold, and corrected most of the problem and recovered most of my accuracy.  It still doesn't shoot as well as junk lead did in the other mold.

To experiment with that old mold again, I've made up a batch of scrap and ww lead suitable for casting several thousand bullets.    I'll know more after I cast and shoot a few hundred of them.

The biggest problem with scrap lead lots is that you can't consistently recreate the mix.  Find a batch that works, and you can't do it exactly that way again.  Good argument for consistent, known alloy.

Another problem is that wheel weight (antimony alloys) bullets change hardness with age.  What shoots good this month might not shoot good next.  I always used to shoot the bullets fresh from the mold within a few days.  Leave them sit a while, and they won't be the same.

dave
  
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frnkeore
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #6 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 5:01pm
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Dave,
A very good point regarding age harding. I never cast up very far in advance, either.

Frank
  

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Elijah
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #7 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 5:04pm
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Quote:
Another problem is that wheel weight (antimony alloys) bullets change hardness with age.  What shoots good this month might not shoot good next.  I always used to shoot the bullets fresh from the mold within a few days.  Leave them sit a while, and they won't be the same


I can vouch for that. I bought some ww ingots about a year back and checked them when they arrived...BHN11.5. Recently I checked them and they had changed to BHN13. Hopefully, they've maxed out or I'll end up with a Lyman #2 mix.

For basic BP shooting with the 45-70, 40-70 or 38-55, etc, I still prefer 1:20.
  
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JLouis
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #8 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 5:59pm
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I never incurred issues with leading just drastic inconsistency. One of my best targets was shot using 1-16 lead, tin and hardball from roto metals. You have to have an alloy that is consistent thus the hardball from roto metals. Wheel weights are probably all over the board in regards to their make up as their is no need for having exacting measured components. The other problem I encountered even though I was exacting on my components was a very large inconsistency with the alloy from batch to batch and after topping the pot after about three to four times it was rendered useless for extreme accuracy use. Bottom line after trying a multitude of lead, tin, antimony variations nothing was as consistent than the 1-16 lead and tin. Alloys of 1-10 lead and tin shot extremly well to but at times I would encounter slight leading. a freind is using 1-15 lead and tin with great succes and has shot his beat target ever after a lifetime of shooting while doing so. It is extremely difficult to get someone away from 1-25 or 1-20 do to the additional cost of tin and could be missing out on some of their rifles best capabilities! If I was limited and had to pick one alloy it would be 1-18, I personnely believe it is the best all around choice based on my exstensive alloy testing. All though it might not be thee best, it is extremely consistent with those long unsupported noses found on today's 6&7 dia. ogivespitzers that need the extra alloy strength to minimize nose slumping. That is one of the most ignored issues with these bullets if you are not using a harder alloy you are dropping those precise points unknowingly.
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2013 at 6:06pm by JLouis »  

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Elijah
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #9 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 7:30pm
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I've always found this most informative but lengthy. Scroll down not quite half way to see where he talks about the hardness issue.

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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #10 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 8:30pm
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I read it all and agree with what is being pointed out. Most do not have an option on the head space as it is what it is. I am fortunate in that I can now do my own barrel work and I set my head space by leaving the rim of the case proud so that I can head space off the back of the case. I will measure all the brass in a lot and set the head space to about a 1/2 thous. using the thickest rim as the gauge. In regards to the unbalanced bullet what Lee might not have covered clearly is that on those long unsupported noses that are now so popular in our sport due to those seemingly magically high BC's is that the nose not only slumps rearward it also slumps off to the side any where from .005 to .012 per catch box tests. That is why a stronger alloy should be used in an attempt to minimize this affect as much as is possible. Dr. Mann has proven through his extensive testing just as Lee has pointed out, the culprit from keeping us from shooting one hole groups is the bullets not being balanced both in the barrel and after it has left it. I would recommend reading the whole article as there is something to be learned from all of it.
  

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Elijah
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #11 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 10:37pm
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I've always been under the impression that with a BPCR such as the more common ones used today...45-70, 45-90, 40-65, 38-55, etc. that an alloy of 1:20 to 1:30 was necessary to obturate the bullet. And, that is a matter of fact. Mike Venturino mentions those ratios a lot in his book. However, if you size properly to match or cast/size to .001-.002 over groove diameter it doesn't seem to me that obturation is a key factor in bullet upset. The bullet's already going to seal the bore given you're not using something like Linotype. Like all things it pays to just experiment with your rifle/loads. I think I'm gong to mix a batch of 1:16 and see how that goes.
  
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #12 - Aug 15th, 2013 at 7:38am
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Still have a couple of hundred early bullets from an unknown mix, which included WW lead. I won't even toss them in the pot with my 'real' 20:1 lead due to contamination and how long it would take to get it diluted back to true 20:1. I just shoot them in our 200m off-hand silhouette match knowing that I'll not be competitive until they are gone and start shooting a 'known good' bullet.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #13 - Aug 15th, 2013 at 8:27am
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If you do the math, time, money, and most important results on target. There is no good reason to use unknown  scrap lead in bullets for fine single shot rifles.

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Re: 1/20 vs ww
Reply #14 - Aug 15th, 2013 at 8:46am
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Stay away from wheel weights its junk there are as many different formulas for it as there are companies who make them. If you are too parsimonious to buy pure tin and lead you would be better off mining range scrap. Antimony makes a lead too brittle for plain-based bullets. Don’t believe me? Try crushing a wheel weight bullet and a 20:1 lead tin bullet in a vice. Take them out and look closely at how they deform notice how the wheel weight bullet cracks small pieces may even fracture off. This is where the leading in your barrel comes from little pieces of the base edge of the bullet fracturing off. The reason that gas checks works is that the copper gives the hardness and ductility that is needed. 

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