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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Inconsistent Ignition (Read 16592 times)
semtav
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #15 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:06am
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SSS
I think I've read all your posts on several forums on this subject, and have yet to see what powders   are being used ( may just be my poor reading ability) clue us in, what powders are being used.
  
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Aonghas
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #16 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 4:10pm
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boats wrote on Apr 24th, 2013 at 6:53am:

You can get  up and down due to powder position with less than case filling smokeless. Very evident with more distance. Black Powder consistent charges are  reliable elevation wise.  I don't subscribe to the light strike poor ignition theory. If it pops it pops heavy or light strike makes no difference. 

I can't agree with that entirely: well, the consistency of the strike doesn't matter much, but have you not ever experienced a hang-fire? (Someone's probably pointed this out further down the line...) Primers which have become damp or been contaminated with oil can sizzle a bit before flashing, which could bring yyour next point into play.
Quote:

At Ram distance considering the high trajectory with our rifles does not take much of a flinch to get strikes 20 yards in front.

Boats


Aonghas
  
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Aonghas
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #17 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 4:12pm
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Possibly the primer is not seated firmly and all the way in the primer pocket?  When the firing pin hits it pushes the primer in until it seats completely?   


Unlikely then that the breech would close properly.

Aonghas
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #18 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 4:53pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Possibly the primer is not seated firmly and all the way in the primer pocket?  When the firing pin hits it pushes the primer in until it seats completely?   


Unlikely then that the breech would close properly.

Aonghas


Not that I would advise doing so Smiley...  but the breech block on a CSA highwall would easily seat an exposed primer as the action was being closed.   

Chris.

  
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joeb33050
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #19 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 5:02pm
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I had a failure to fire a few weeks ago, and as taught 50 years ago, waited a couple of minutes before opening the gun. We talked about this at the range. I've had click-bang, but NEVER, since 1960, had a second or more between click and bang. All talkers agreed. It's a myth.
joe b.

[quote author=466174797E7067150 link=1366725473/16#16 date=1367007010][quote author=333E302522510 link=1366725473/12#12 date=1366800835]

I can't agree with that entirely: well, the consistency of the strike doesn't matter much, but have you not ever experienced a hang-fire? (Someone's probably pointed this out further down the line...) Primers which have become damp or been contaminated with oil can sizzle a bit before flashing, which could bring yyour next point into play.
[quote]
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #20 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 5:29pm
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A myth?  One has to have a VERY wide knowledge base to be able to say that.

It is likely rare, might be non-existant, BUT with the consequences being what they are (loosing one's sight or ...) it is worth the two or three minutes.  Yea, I usually wait half a minute or so and take precautions on the round in question.
  

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imalarduss
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #21 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 9:20pm
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Not saying the primer has to be hanging out of the end of the brass to the point of the action not closing.  If it is not firmly and totally seated there may be enough movement that the firing pin pushes the primer forward just enough the primer won't/doesn't get a firm enough strike to immediately set if off.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #22 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 9:21pm
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semtav wrote on Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:06am:
SSS
I think I've read all your posts on several forums on this subject, and have yet to see what powders   are being used ( may just be my poor reading ability) clue us in, what powders are being used.
56gr of 1.5F or 2F Swiss, 325gr BACo 'Money' bullet in 20-1, re-sized Rem 45-70 or Starline 40-65 cases, Rem LR primer, 2x0.060" & 1x0.030" Walters fiber wad and SPG lube. All cases have been fired at least 3 times and and do not sizing on fire-formed cases. Bullets are thumb seated and can be easily removed with ones fingers. Newspaper was on top of the last fiber wad below the bullet. Only compression comes from pushing the wads down on top of the powder with a pencil. 
Will be trying a couple of things once C.Sharps has returned the parts.
Will try compressing 0.10". Will try adding an additional grain of powder and leaving out one wad. But, will shoot the existing load first, to see if it is the new hammer spring and whatever else was done at C.Sharps fixes the problem.

I much prefer to wait a bit after a mis-fire. Saw the results of a 5"-54, which uses BP as an ignition source, when one did not wait for the prescribed time. Can make a real mess. I like my fingers, face (such as it is) and, especially, my eyes. Not worth 30sec to give any of them up.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Aonghas
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #23 - Apr 27th, 2013 at 4:36pm
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joeb33050 wrote on Apr 26th, 2013 at 5:02pm:
I had a failure to fire a few weeks ago, and as taught 50 years ago, waited a couple of minutes before opening the gun. We talked about this at the range. I've had click-bang, but NEVER, since 1960, had a second or more between click and bang. All talkers agreed. It's a myth.
joe b.

I've seen it happen several times with a batch of really old .22 Long (Lesmok brand) that my grandfather had. He stopped shooting shortly after WWI. OK, we are talking about pre-smokeless powder, but a couple of the rounds went off as they were being extracted.

I always wait a good five seconds before opening the breech or taking the butt of my shoulder following a misfire, especially as I like Bigger and Better Bangs. If any of my guns had a bumper, the sticker might say:  "My other gun is a 4-bore rifle." (True, it's a muzzle-loader, but I had a very interestingly coloured biceps when my old 8-bore hung fire for long enough for me to dismount it...)

Aonghas
  
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Aonghas
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #24 - Apr 27th, 2013 at 4:42pm
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Quote:
Not saying the primer has to be hanging out of the end of the brass to the point of the action not closing.  If it is not firmly and totally seated there may be enough movement that the firing pin pushes the primer forward just enough the primer won't/doesn't get a firm enough strike to immediately set if off.   

Most actions have rebound locks, so a protruding firing-pin would be a rarity. I can't ever remember seeing one.

Aonghas
  
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semtav
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #25 - Apr 27th, 2013 at 10:59pm
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SSShooter wrote on Apr 26th, 2013 at 9:21pm:
56gr of 1.5F or 2F Swiss, 325gr BACo 'Money' bullet in 20-1, re-sized Rem 45-70 or Starline 40-65 cases, Rem LR primer, 2x0.060" & 1x0.030" Walters fiber wad and SPG lube. 


only thing I would change   before I spent  a lot of time troubleshooting is switch the primer to a Federal Match primer or a CCI BR-2 or and see if the problem persists.
  
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rhbrink
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #26 - Apr 28th, 2013 at 7:29am
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Just a thought as I was reading this. Last year I was working on a load in a 38-55 using Unique for a up and coming 100 yd offhand match. This load was shooting very well MOA at 100 yds bench which I considered good enough for my offhand shooting. Then I started dropping shots out of the group 8 to 10 inches low at 100 yds. I was shooting a CPA action and with a Badger barrel and it has always shot very well. I about lost my mind trying to figure out what was going on. Finally I noticed that sometimes as I cocked the hammer back the screw that holds the hammer was rotating with the hammer. So I tightened it up and that fixed the problem. When I got home I turned it out a bit and applied a drop of Lock Tight and no more vertical stringing.

I don't know if that is your problem or not but it might be something to look into. I could see where 10" at 100 yds would translate into many feet at 1000.

Richard
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #27 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 12:06pm
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Just got off the phone with JohnS. at C.Sharps. After going over my block/lever/hammer and bad firing pins he has come to the conclusion that the inconsistent ignition is likely due to the hammer dragging just a bit against the mortise and the firing pin having worn the block in such a manner that the combination was creating enough drag when both were occurring at the same time, to cause the problem. All three of my 'bad' firing pins were worn in the same way and slightly bent. They removed the burr on the hammer to clear the mortise, installed a new hammer mainspring, firing pin and a new block and it is all on its way back to me. 
Thanks to C.Sharps for the great service and fast turn-around on this.
Looking forward to shooting the High Wall again. Fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2013 at 12:17pm by SSShooter »  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Schutzenbob
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #28 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 12:54pm
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One thing that seems to cause confusion is that high wall Winchesters and most of their clones have a firing pin retractor, so when the block goes over center on it’s way down, the retractor pushes the pin back and then the block moves downward. If the timing isn't right, it can cause problems.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Inconsistent Ignition
Reply #29 - May 7th, 2013 at 4:40pm
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OK........ got the new parts back from C. Sharps and into the rifle and did some testing at 300yd. While I still had 3-4 shots out of 40 that were significantly lower than the others, I'm thinking boats is likely correct and it is an inattentive hold on my part that is the problem. On the flip side, I tested six (6) Swiss and Goex loads and found one 1.5F Swiss load and one 2F Goex load that held 1moa at 300yd. So, have an excellent starting point to fine-tune a load.
Thanks to all for you input.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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