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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot (Read 15610 times)
Schuetzendave
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Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Feb 28th, 2013 at 4:12pm
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I have been getting a number of queries regarding how I identify a rifle barrel's sweet spot.

First you need a weigh scale capable of precisely measuring powder loads to 0.1 grain variations. I use a RCBS 10-10 scale and make sure I calibrate it before testing and I bump the pan downwards on each measurement to make sure the scale has not hung up.

I  measure test powder loads 0.1 grains apart which will be test fired to determine their group size.

I start with a general powder load being used for a specific bullet, caliber, barrel twist and powder being used. (i.e. 12.0 grains H108, or AA#9, or WC820 with 210 to 235 grain bullets in 1:14 to 1:11.5 twist .32 caliber barrels)
I usually start with a powder load to test that is a 1/2 grain less. I  load 10 powder loads 0.1 grains apart so the largest powder load will be 1/2 grain larger than my starting load.

I have found about every 0.3 grain variations there is a significantly smaller groups size where barrel vibrations are less. After testing the first 10 loads you should have three spots that are smaller (with two larger groups in between them). Comparisons of these smaller groups indicates if you have to go up or down with your powder loads to find the smallest group size. 

You can continue to test the entire potential powder range to find the smallest group. I stop when I acheieve 1/2 MOA from powder testing.

I then further refine this sweet spot by fine tuning the chamber's air space by opening the Weber seater by extending the plunger by 1/2 a twist.  I test the group size differences that occur by changing the air volume and put the plunger back to the point where I obtained the smallest group size.

Before I start doing the powder testing I first ensure my adjustable seater is set so the base band of my bullet is engraved by rifling.

So the smallest group size and the sweet spot is identified by testing powder loads which are then fine tuned with adjustments to the seating depth.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #1 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 4:59pm
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Col Sir St John Halford in his 1888 book - " The Art of Shooting with the Rifle" wrote subsonic reloads produce better groups. 
Reasoning, the elasticity of a gun barrel will have a smaller harmonic vibration node and the bullet will exit the muzzle nearer to the point of aim.
His experimentation was 4.5drams - 2drams and 1dram and found that the 1 dram charge ..."and that with the 1 dram charge it was on it's return journey upwards, or that the possibility of the total flip was so little that barrel was never so much displaced" 
Add to this: "I then tried 1 dram, when, to my surprise, the bullets hit in exactly the same place that they did with the 4 1/2drs."
Source: pages - 58 and 59
  
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don1885
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #2 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 5:16pm
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Dave, do you use a sled on any of your bench guns? If so, how do you determine the location of the sled in your tuning process.
  

Don
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #3 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 7:05pm
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A sled alleviates for poor bench techniques and does not provide for the best bench accuracy in my mind. 

To shoot accurately off the bench you need to have exceptional bench technique even if you use a sled.

I find a sled is a distraction and I am able to shoot more accurately if I ensure I concentrate on my bench technique as opposed to aligning a sled.

If you develop and ensure you properly use proper bench techniques; there is no need for a sled. 

If you have a cant problem; adjust the legs of your front benchrest for realignment and then ensure you always return your rifle to the exact same position before you refire. You do not need a sled to align or position your rifle.

I believe people using sleds overly rely too much on them and as a result they do not put enough attention into addressing breathing, bag alignment, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, finger pull, follow through and addressing the other factors that affect the rifle's recoil. Besides I have found canted rifles have shot just as accurately for me as those aligned square with the horizon.
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2013 at 7:16pm by Schuetzendave »  
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don1885
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #4 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 7:32pm
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Thanks Dave, appreciate your reply.
  

Don
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JLouis
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #5 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:15pm
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Dave looking at you load being around 12.0grs. is it safe to assume you do not have concerns about being supersonic all the way to the target at 200yds. I have to push my bullets to a 1474fps. average to stay supersonic to 200yds. and I have to be in the 14+gr. range in my 32-40 to accomplish it. I have also found there are two nodes / sweet spots, one in the 1250+fps. and another around 1450+fps. Both will provide the same results in group size with the second keeping me supersonic to 200yds. The only down side if one cares to be supersonic to 200yds. is the additional torque, recoil equaling more movement on the bags. The upside is it pushes the BC up of which provides just a tad less wind drift. In regards to the sled one does have to pay attention to all the little details you described in order for it to work and it works very well just as the slug gunners have proved for more years than I can remember. The plus side is the ease of establishing and maintaining recoil balance a very important equation to accuracy that most tend not to think about nor exactly how to achieve it.

J.Louis
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #6 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 12:16am
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John I do not worry about the speed of my bullet for Schuetzen competitions. Rather I let the rifle demonstrate the speed which demonstrates the best sweet spot which provides the smallest group size. There is a sweet spot roughly every 0.3 grains of powder. Of course each sweet spot will not demonstrate the same level of accuracy so you need to then evaluate the differences in accuracy of the different sweet spots you identified. The very best sweet spot may be at a lower velocity in one rifle versus a higher velocity in another rifle. Firing groups is the only way to assess the point of least vibration achieved by a specific barrel when assessing different powder loads.

Each barrel demonstrates different harmonics. For the four different similar .32 caliber RKS barrels for which  I identified the best  sweet spot; the velocities varied from around 1,400 fps to 1,525 fps. 

The speed for one rifle's sweet spot will not provide the same vibrations when tested in another rifle, even if it has the same type of barrel.

It is also interesting that whenever I have identified the sweet spot for a rifle  and the smallest group sizes; the chrony does not indicate that I have achieved the smallest standard of deviation of  the velocity for the powder loads tested. I have found that the assessment of bullet velocities has not assisted me in identifying the best sweet spot. 

Once your standard deviations of velocity are less than 1% you cannot assess differences in accuracy from evaluating changes in SD of the velocity. I have seen this specified in the literature, but unfortunately I do not have a reference for you.

Most rifles have sweet spots that show better accuracy at faster velocities until you start exceeding the 1,525 fps since then recoil becomes more of a factor on group sizes.

Remember for this testing I have used spitzer bullets which are less susceptible to drift at these velocities and shooting at 100 to 200 yards. You need 1,525 fps for 300 yd accuracy.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #7 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 6:49am
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Dave:
How many groups of how many shots do you shoot while looking for these sweet spots?
Thanks;
joe b.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #8 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:52am
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Dave 
I'll describe my method it has some similarities and some differences. First I start with a load that I know is slow and work up, shooting over a chronograph, adding two clicks on my Harrel measure. I make note of my measure setting when the vertical stringing closes up and continue on. There is usually about three speeds where the vertical stringing is at it lowest before they start to open up again. 
I then go back to the settings that gave the lowest vertical stringing and start to test and fine tune each. Keeping notes over several days and weather conditions as to group size. Then the loads are evaluated I choose the one that has given the best average. Then I adjust my seating depth. My starting seating depth is always .065" When I adjust I start .010" low and work up .005" at a time. Keeping careful track of group size. Only when I have what I consider a successful load do I make note of the actual charge weight.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #9 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 1:04pm
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Joe I start with single 5 shot groups to develop a map that indicates where sweet spots are and whether the sweet spots increase or decrease in group size with the amount of powder. This is not a statistical approach; it is a mapping initiative to initially identify where and what I need to statistically verify.

Then I select what appears to be specific sweet spots and ussually test 3 thirty shot groups shot under heavy wind conditions where one powder load is 0.1 grain more, plus the powder load selected plus a 30 shot powder load of 0.1 grain less. This test is done three times to verify differences in the average 30 shot group size between different powder loads tested on a head to head basis (+/- 0.1 grain).

5 shot groups are shot initially to provide a map for testing and are not the statistical verification of the sweet spot selected. More intensive sampling and verification is required to verify a selected sweet spot.

When a sweet spot is found there is a very prounounced difference in group size and generally I do not need to do extensive sampling to demonstrate a difference between sweet spot accuracy versus non-sweet spot accuracy. But I do use 30 shot group samples for the final statistical verification and replicate it three times.

  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #10 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 1:49pm
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40Rod:

I see how you are finding your sweet spot by evaluating small powder variations combined with volume fine tuning. Yes I have noticed differences of group shape where a sweet spot provides tight clustered groups whereas non-sweet spots demonstrate larger shotgun patterns and/or string shaped groups.

I see you use a chronograph; but I am not sure what it is telling you.
  
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #11 - Mar 1st, 2013 at 7:48pm
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I am with 40_Rod as I do my load development in the same manor. The only difference being I set my breach seater so the first shot out of a clean barrel starts forming the group. I use the chronograph to insure I have a sweetspot that will get me to 1470 or beyond so I can stay supersonic to 200yds. with my 6 diameter ogive bullet. 1450fps would put me on the ragged edge and anything less just won't get me there. The only other time I use the chronograph is when changing lots of powder and or primers to insure I am still in the velocity range that bullet likes.

J.Louis
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #12 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 9:42am
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Dave I use the chronograph to tell me the the bullets speed when I hit a sweet spot. I don't bother with the powder volume until I have determined my final shooting velocity. For two reasons changes in temperature demand subtle changes in the powder charge. The second reason is that with the Harrell click type adjustments when I dial to 92 1/2 I get the same amount of powder every time. The only time I use a volume measurement is when I fill out my load information on a match form or when giving a load to another shooter as even if the shooter has a Harrell measure like mine the drop at 92 1/2 is probably different.
  John I have never been able to get the first shot out of a clean barrel to go in the group consistently. I usually put two down the barrel before starting on a target. The same when I make a powder change I put one or two off target before starting on a group. I have found that when I change settings especially subtle changes the velocities take a shot or two to change reliably. I also agree that one must stay either supersonic or subsonic from muzzle to target my usual choice is between 1450 and 1480. 

40 Rod
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #13 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 11:13am
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I also shoot three shots down range to warm up and consistently foul my barrel before I start shooting groups. Always a significant difference between the first and second shot for just about every rifle I have ever owned.

I have been meaning to try a Harrel powder measure.
So far I have been very successful just using a Lyman 55 for fine ball powders. I assume using a Harrel would be easier and not require as careful a technique when using it.

I hand weigh each and every load for doing my testing; however I use the powder measure when bulk loading for competitions.
« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2013 at 11:34am by Schuetzendave »  
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40_Rod
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Re: Powder Testing to Identify Barrel Sweet Spot
Reply #14 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 12:11pm
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Dave 
The Harrel Schuetzen / Pistol measure is the the best measure I have found for ball powders. The advantage to the click measures is that when you dial to a reading you will get the same drop every time. But it is not a substitute for good technique. You need to spend time with the measure to find the routine that will give you the most consistent drop. Mine is to bring the handle up to the stop firmly hesitate and then bring it down firmly so it produces a slight knock at the bottom. Then leave the handle down during the balance of the loading process. I know that this is the advice that almost everyone gives it is more about "feel" and habit getting a correct drop. You will have to develop it yourself but now I can keep a 10 shot string consistently within 10 FPS at this point the wind is much more your enemy than variations in velocity. 
One more tip I rub the inside of my plastic powder bottles with extremely fine graphite to the point that you can barely see into them. This helps to keep the measure or powder bottle from picking up static. I have observed on really dry days that the grains of fine ball powders will stick to the sides of the bottle. The graphite stops that.

40 Rod
  
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