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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer? (Read 19959 times)
zipdog
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Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Jan 23rd, 2008 at 5:03pm
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Hello, everyone.  This is my first post, and I am interested in a single-shot of the 1874-75 Sharps or Winchester High Wall variety.  I would like to be able to shoot smokeless as well as black powder.  I don't want to take out a 2nd mortgage to finance this, but neither do I want to buy a piece of junk.  What recommendations would any of you have, both in terms of caliber as well as the hardware?

Rusty  Undecided
  
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Brent
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #1 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 5:23pm
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It all depends.  That's the easy answer.

How much money do you really want to spend?  What looks like a mortgage to one person is something else to another.

That said, the Pedersoli Sharps and their soon to be born highwall are good rifles (or likely to be in the case of the Hwall). Ubertis are fine and used CSharps or Shilohs are not outrageous by some standards.   

For cases, I know you can shoot smokeless in just about any cartridge you want.  But I suppose the .45-70s are easiest, along with .38-55s on the smaller size.  Maybe a better issue to consider is what you want to do with it, and how much recoil do you need to get done what needs doin'.

FWIW, my first single-shot, my first reloadable centerfire of any kind was one .45-90 shiloh #3 standard grade.  It was a great rifle, and I still use it more often than almost any other rifle for everything from 1000 yd target competition to hunting elk and deer - although it was rebarreled along the way for various reasons.   

Brent

Brent
  
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zipdog
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #2 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 5:46pm
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I would have to say that my max is $1500.00. I've been looking at Pedersolis and Ubertis on the web, as well as C.Sharps.  Shiloh is probably out of the question, in terms of both price and delivery.
  
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Brent
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #3 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 5:52pm
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Delivery on Shilohs can be less than you think but $1500 is hard to get under, even used.  

So, between Pederoli and Uberti, I vote for the former - even if you have to go used.  

What are you going to shoot at and how far and how often? Etc etc.  

You could get a good quality original trapdoor for that sort of money I think.  What do you think of that?  Again, what are you going to shoot?

Sights?  What are your druthers?  Good ones cost money and they are worth every single penny.

I forgot to add the New Winchester 1885 bpcr or the slightly older Browing 1885 BPCR are both fine rifles in about that price range and should come with servicable sights.

Brent
  
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zipdog
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #4 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 6:26pm
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200-300 yds, target/silhouette only....nothing alive. (Not that I'm anti-hunting...I just don't hate all those animals anymore)  I was seriously looking at a NIB Winchester LTD Series 1885 High Wall Creedmore in .45-90 but talked myself out of it because it's not really suitable for smokeless.  It had Soule-type rear sights, globe front with spirit level. 34" 1/2 & 1/2  Badger barrel.  The seller has another one, so I may reconsider.

Rusty
  
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MIKE-T
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #5 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 6:31pm
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If you have time take a look at CPA's website (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) they have some specials that come in various calibers with unfinished stocks of your choice (minor shaping, sanding, finishing required) I know these are not High Walls or Sharps but very nice New custom rifles that very close to your price range...
MIKE-T
  
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38_Cal
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #6 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 6:31pm
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For what you want it to do, 45-70 or 40-65 would be better choices.  Even 38-55.

David
Montezuma, IA
  

David Kaiser
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Brent
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #7 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 6:32pm
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That would be a good rifle with better out-of-the-box sights than any of the others.  Is is overkill in the cartridge for your use.  But not a bad choice anyway. Ask him if he can get you one in .45-70.  I don't know if they make it in .40-65 or smaller but they might.  Surfing the net might tell you too, if no one here does soon.

But for what you are describing a .38-55 Uberti highwall might work very well, but expect to spend money on some sort of sights I think.

hmm, I see David is thinking along the same lines as I typed this in.
Brent
  
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Bruce P
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #8 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 8:06pm
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I'll toss my 2 cents worth in for good measure.

The CPA's are great rifles, but even with unfinished wood you're looking at 2K minus the sights.

Either go with an Uberti Highwall in .38-55, or what I would prefer is the Pedersoli Sharps, or Rolling Block in .40-65. Both are perfect cartridges for your intended application. 

I finished slugging the bore on a friend's Uberti Highwall this afternoon and found it to be .381". Kind of a funky size for that cartridge. You'll have to cast for that one. I think the Ped's bore sizes are more standardized. You can go with store bought bullets on that one if you don't care to cast your own.

The .45-70 is a good one too, but will give you a little more bump. Inside of 300 yards you don't need the heavies.

More thoughts to add to the confusion.

Regards, Bruce

  
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MerwinBray
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #9 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 8:46pm
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Zipdog,
Welcome aboard!
I can attest for MY pedersoli rolling block. I have the older 45-70 longerange version with a heavey 34" barrel and solid shotgun style stock. It wasn't offered in double set trigger at the time. When they came out with the John Bodine model mine seemed to disapear. I also got it from Cabela's when they were on sale and it cost me around 900.00 shipped. You can probably find a used Pedersoli for under a grand, but new they are more. I have shot it out to 600 yds in a midrange match with not so good loads and still got a couple X's at that range. As with any BP or smokeless round, once you find that load that works, stick with it! I just didn't have the money for a lonestar roller which is what I wanted. At first I felt like I "settled" but took to the Pedersoli quickly. The factory trigger breaks clean and it has never failed me. Mine has a nice barrel.
I finaly settled on my load this spring when in testing at 200 I shot 4 of 5 rounds in just at 2 3/4 inches, the 5th I jerked and it went where it should have. I know some can do better, but that is my best. I shot many more good groups with that load, one good group doesn't really tell the tale!
Brent does have a good point about the Trapdoors. A very nice original can still be had for under a grand. Well under from some people. They may be a bit more finicky to load but never discount one for accuracy!
Plus, you get a neat old original classic rifle that will most likely INCREASE in value. WHen I started messing with them about 15 years ago, I could pick up a nice original for about 400 and a very nice one for 500. Now the ones in that range that I see seem to be put together parts guns. But if you want a shooter, who cares!
My cousin wanted into the BP cartridge game and like so many of us was strapped for cash. I had bought a beat up 7mm roller at a flea market for 125.00 just for the action. Well, it sat and did nothing for a couple years. He had a Grenner martini sitting doing nothing and that would not qualify for NRA rules BPCR, so we traded, I didn't have a martini and had a couple rollers. He had a Hoyt barrel made and installed. He has less that 500.00 in the whole gun, including the price he paid for the martini he traded to me! He still needs sights though. Point being, An original Roller action can still be had at a fair price and a barrel installed by one of the many great smiths out there. You can pay for it in bits if you want, choose your wood, caliber, etc. You have to be careful of many things in the action you choose, lock up of block and hammer, slop in the pins, right extractor for what you want, etc. Also, if you want to shoot smkeless loads in a roller most will tell you to get one of the ones that were original made for smokeless such as a 7mm mauser. I think they were called the model 5, but don't quote me.
It is easier and quicker to jusy buy a complete gun, but a little satisfying seeing one put together the way you want it. I've done both and enjoy both.
The only uberti rifle I have is a revolving carbine, and it misfired right out of the box! So I got an R&D .45 colt cylinder for it years ago and love it! But that's not a single shot, so it doesn't count! That one was a wedding gift from my wife.
I have rambled way more than I should have.
Merwin
  

Great Plains Precision Rifle Club
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Paul_F.
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #10 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 9:12pm
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The CPA's are gorgeous! But, as has been mentioned, spendy. Worth it? Absolutely... but VISA will only get you so far...
Same with Shiloh.  GREAT rifles (shoot great, look great, very droolworthy), but spendy.

Having the basic inability to save money beyond about $1000 before buying something, I've become familliar with the "sub $1500" Single Shot market by reputation and experience.

The Uberti High Walls really look pretty nice.  One of the guys in my club has one in .45-70 (as done up for Taylor and Co, with their name on it).  Very nice!  The trigger was "lightly worked over" by a local smith, and now is a very nice clean breaking trigger. I don't know what it was like out of the box.  This rifle groups 1-1/2" at 100 yards with 380-soemthing grain bullets and a very small charge (9-something grains) of TiteGroup pistol powder.  Thats not its best groups, just a very mild gallery load that shoots good.

I've been dying to get one in .38-55, with pistol grip and double set trigger.... but Buffalo Arms is out of stock until late february. (aaarrggghh!).

Now, Pedersoli has announced they will be making a High Wall and should have the first run done and on sale by early summer (that is subject to change, as are all details about these... they're announcing officially at the SHOT Show).
This info was posted here a few days ago, and more just this morning (I think).

In a Sharps; I've seen a couple Pedersoli's that I really liked, that shot better than I can.  I also have a Pedretti and Sons that, though it shoots good NOW, had enough "issues" from the factory that I would NOT recommend one unless you had full return priviledges after test firing.

Here's another option for you to consider;
There are a number of Swedish rolling blocks on the market right now in 12.15x44R and 8x58R calibers.  Dies are available, and brass is make-able.   
I got one in 12.15x44R last year for $400-ish, and I'm enjoyng it very much, and it groups around 3-4" at 100 with my crude bullet casting skills and smokeless powder... I have yet to try "good" bullets and Black Powder in it.
Try (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) for a bunch of Swede Rolling Blocks from $300 to $800. CH4D dies from Buffalo Arms, and brass from Buffalo Arms too.


You could also see if Atlanta Cutlery still has some Martini's (though you didn't ask about 'em).  Trouble with them is the brass and dies are BRUTALLY expensive!

Another option is to keep an eye out for an original Rolling Block in 7mm or .43 Spansih... not to shoot "as is", but to rebarrel. As has been mentioned, they do still turn up affordably once in a while.  I'd personally prefer one of the Swede's, but I did briefly have a .43 Spanish rolling block that I Kinda wish I'd kept... it was in exclellent shape, and probably would have shot pretty good as-is or made a fantastic "organ donor"... Oh well.

Hope this helps!
Others are far more familiar with the more expensive options.

Paul F.

PS it does kinda depend on what sort of shooting you want to do which rifle might be best... I just went with a "broad brush" from a cheapskates point of view...
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #11 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 9:22pm
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OK... so this is what happens when I reply from the "Recent Posts" page, rather than read the whole thread...

I've just repeated a lot of what others have already said, LOL!


Paul F.
  
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zipdog
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #12 - Jan 23rd, 2008 at 9:35pm
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Everyone's comments and advice are greatly appreciated! Some will call this sacrilege, but I actually prefer the looks of a high wall over the Sharps.  I'd take either, though.  There are a couple of Pedersolis on GB that I'm watching.   Maybe I'll luck out.  If not, I'm intrigued by the .40-65 and .38-55.
What about .40-70?  There's one of those on GB as well.
  
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MerwinBray
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #13 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 7:57am
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Zipdog,
I don't have any personal experience with the 40 cals, but several people on the board do. I have always read and heard very good things. In the mid to late 1990's, you saw a lot of guys shooting the 40-65 in BPCR, a lot still do but it is a very capable round. I was told by my smith who built my 50-45 rollingblock carbine ( just a project, not a comp rifle) that he like the 40-65 because it is accurate and has less recoil that a 45-70, though tooling up is a bit more pricey. 
As for the 38-55, when I got my 44.5 my train of thought was to build a BPCR rifle from it in 38-55. The action is NRA approved, (Thanks Boats!!), and the originals can handle the round, not to mention I was not shooting schuetzen yet. Several people told me the round was underpowered for 500. Not long after one, Matt Carter, won the National NRA championship with one! They will get it done if you do it right. You get less recoil, but trade off knock over power. I never got that far. I was dragged into schuetzen and fell in love with it! I realized I already had the basis for a schuetzen rifle in my 44.5 with it's 38-55 barrel. And I already had my Pedersoli roller for big bore stuff.
I don't know if you can go wrong with any of those rounds, It really does depend on what you intend to shoot, if it is BPCR or schuetzen, longrange, mid range, etc. 
Merwin
  

Great Plains Precision Rifle Club
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Brent
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Re: Which Rifle/caliber for first-timer?
Reply #14 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 7:59am
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Someone won the National BPCR match with a .38-55?   News to me.  What year?   

You're talking about the Raton match right?

Brent
  
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