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BullsEye
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Groove less bullets and lube
Mar 5th, 2007 at 2:21am
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Hi,

I'm thinking of having a mould made for a groove less bullet. I'm currently using a PJ Creedmore 540g in a 45/70 with reasonable results.

I've heard and read that the groove less bullets have a better B.C and  have better wind bucking characteristics. Has anyone had any experience of these (good or bad). I'd love to hear your comments.

Also, I'm trying to find a retailer for White Lightning BPCR lube but without any joy (I live in the UK!) I've tried all the usual places on the internet but can only find White Lightning grease which is used for bicycle chains etc. Is this the same stuff? The White Lightning BPCR lube come in two types for grooved and groove less bullets. Can anyone please tell where you can purchase the groove less variety from.

Thanks in advance!
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #1 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 5:31am
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BE,

Not sure, but I thought it was this guy: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
And no, no retailers outisde the US - and only 1 in the US...
For the grooveless bullet design, contact Dan theodore, he usually hangs out on the Shiloh rifle forum - but beware, you need a graduate in BPCR to be able to make it work.  FWIW, his last development was a Micro-minigroove bullet having just about the BC of the grooveless bullet...
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 6:01am
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I got Werner Wolf to re-cut some molds without grease grooves some years ago, now have molds in .30, .32 and .45, no-grease-groove = NGG bullets. Wrote these up for the ASSRA Journal ~15 years ago. 
My theory was that no grease grooves would give a higher Ballistic Coefficient. The .45 430 grain bullet was chronographed at 5 and 200 yards and has a BC in the .6 range. More recently I sent bullets and lent the mold/s to Bill McGraw, he sent bullets to Mustafa Curtiss and had a mold cut. The NGG bullets work at low velocity lubed with liquid Alox or Darr without leading for me; and seem to work for them. I couldn't get them to shoot with BP without leading, didn't try much. While all three bullets work and are fairly accurate, only the .45 bullet is as accurate as my grooved-mold bullets. The .30 is LONG, ~220 grains, the .32 is almost a cylinder. 
I don't want to sell these molds, but would be happy to send bullets or lend a mold to anyone wanting to experiment. Some day we may move closer to a range that goes beyond 100 yards, then I'd work more with these.
Let me know if you (anyone) want to try a mold.
joe b.
  
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DonH
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #3 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 8:24am
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Go to this site and search on both the bullet design and lube:

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I don't know Dan Theodore so have nothing in this but Dan (and some others) are working with aerodynamic science in relation to bullet design. While I'm not up with them in terms of the science, I do have enough basic engineering knowledge to believe in what tyhey are doing. Physics and aerodynamics are what makes bullets work, not black magic. Other people arrive at about the same place empirically (design and test) but I believe the rocket-science approach may be a better predicter before any metal is cut. Lead bullet design is evolving but is already better than ever.
  
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rk4570
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #4 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 10:40am
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I have two of Dans designs in 45 cal., one is the grooveless & the other is the NASA II which is the one large shallow groove. Both moulds are by Paul Jones. I shot the Nasa II design in sillouette, it did well for me BUT I havnt been shooting much for the past couple years.
For health reasons I have switched from 45 cal. to 38-50 & I am shooting the Nasa II design in the 38.

Dan has done a lot of work with bullet design & its hard to keep up with him, his latest designs are what he calls the Mini & Micro grooves, also one called the Money bullet.
 
If you are interested in the 45 cal. moulds send me a private message& maybe we can make a deal.   Cool
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #5 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 2:46pm
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To answer the other part of your question, the only current source I know of for the White Lightening BPCR lube is Jim Terry, Gentleman Jim Products.  You can reach him at gentlemanjimproducts @ msn.com (remove spaces). 

Greg
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: Groove less bullets and lube
Reply #6 - Mar 6th, 2007 at 5:15pm
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I've had a little experience with groove-free bullets, in the form of swaged paper-patched 38-55 bullets. The big advantage to groove-free bullets is that they can be swaged, and swaged bullets seem to shoot very well. Now, Jim and Barry (B&D molds) are making excellent molds with three very small grooves to carry the lube. This may be the answer to your quest, at least it's worth a try.

Bob
  
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