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joeb33050
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Fitz, Threads?
Feb 1st, 2006 at 3:26pm
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Sorry to hear about your health problems, perhaps you might cut down on the smoking and drinking. Best of luck.
Now, you once told me an involved story about SS rifle barrels interchanging on actions- and said that the threads on the barrel were somehow indexed??
It seems to me that revolver barrel and action threads must be the same way, else there would be much fitting to get the barrel in the frame with the front sight up. 
Would you tell me/us how those kind of threads are made and what SS rifles have the interchangable barrels?
Hi to the shooters;
joe b.
  
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FITZ
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Re: Fitz, Threads?
Reply #1 - Feb 1st, 2006 at 9:19pm
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Joe, the two rifles that I can speak to are the Winchester model 1885 and the Sharps Borchardt. I have also had very good luck with Winchester M70s and Model 54s. The way this was achieved was through the machining method known as 
"Thread Milling" This is a Horizontal Milling Machine, setup with a powered index head thru gearing that is tied to table travel and table screw. This allows the machining of threads usually in one pass that is indexed to a specific feature already finished on the barrel. It could be a barrel flat or a dovetail cut, either would suffice. The milling cutter is shaped to the specific thread form desired. Now this is not to say that this produces the most accurate interchangable barrels. Winchester had a standard that called out how close to proper index the barrel would screw into by hand. they then used a barrel wrench and held the action in fixture and pulled it up tight and to the index mark. At this point the sight slots were correctly on top and the flats on an octagon barrel would be correct. All of the barrel work, flats, sight slots, spring mount slots underneath, and extractor cuts into the chamber were complete and finished. Sharps Borchardts were done in the same manner. Thread Milling is not widely known because it is expensive to setup and will only payoff when there is production enough to warrant. It has come back somewhat today with the evolution of Computer Numerical Machining. These machines can keep track of all aspects of cutter location and index thread start and end as required. Some of the Lathes in use today will even keep rotation of the spindle down to a few seconds of arc/angle. This allows them to rough and finish thread with very small infeeds but at high spindle speeds and it is all done with rotary encoders and digital positioning controls. No direct gearing is used at all in these new machines. Well I have gotten long winded here. If this does not answer your question let me know and I will try again. Regards, FITZ.
  

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joeb33050
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Re: Fitz, Threads?
Reply #2 - Feb 2nd, 2006 at 5:04am
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Thanks Bob;
I can understand enough of what you said to picture the process of the barrel threading. How is the receiver threaded?
I can almost see a point tool in a mill indexed to zero angle and "front" of the receiver, then moving around and down. Is that how?
Now, there's much talk about revolver barrel restriction at the frame-barrel joint because of cranking the barrel onto the frame. Does this have to happen? Did the SS rifles have this restriction?
Thanks again;
joe b.
  
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Re: Fitz, Threads?
Reply #3 - Feb 2nd, 2006 at 7:54pm
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Joe, a basic fact. All materials are plastic. That is if you load them enough they will distort. Does not matter if it is compression or tension. Enough load will cause distortion. Now a Rifle barrel shank if pulled tight enough (tension) will stretch. In the Single shots I have worked on I have not seen any tight enough for this to be an issue. I have seen it in some Bolt actions. Springfields are notorious. Also some Jap rifles. And an occasional Remington although in their case it may be rifles assembled with locktight. I have wondered about Springfields if it was not a combination of tightness and thread form or dimension fit. They use a square thread and it is a tough operation to keep them in spec in production
operations. I do remember reading that the last Winchester M70 target rifles the barrels were chambered about .010 shy of correct and then they were installed in the recievers with permanant grade locktight and pulled up tight to 240 ft-lbs of tourque. This would stretch the chambers to within .005 or slightly less and then they were finish chamber reamed. An interesting side note was when the rifles were accuracy tested if they were not up to par Winchester would not try to salvage the reciever or the barrel, they destroyed them completely as they had found they could not disassemble them without causing damage. As for Pistols being pulled up tight enough to cause a constriction I would have to pass on that as I have no real knowledge. I could picture it happening if you could pull them up tight anough. But there really is not a lot of material in a revolver frame to hold onto for serious tourque such that you could distort the barrel shank. I would suspect that the reciever would distort first.
HTH and hope all is well with you. Regards, FITZ.
  

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JDSteele
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Re: Fitz, Threads?
Reply #4 - Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:09am
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Some 15-16 years ago or so, Merrill Martin published an article in Precision Shooting about this very subject. He had two S&W revolvers, a 38 Special and a 357 Mag as I remember, and he found noticable bore constrictions under the barrel threads in both cases.

He determined that the S&W constrictions were caused by two things; the first was the little cross-pin used to hold the barrel in alignment on the older S&Ws, and the second was the compression in the thread area caused by drawing the barrel tight.

It's a long story, but the resolution was that he lapped the constrictions & gained a very noticable accuracy improvement in both pistols as a result. The ultimate outcome was the relatively new process of fire-lapping, and a new company was formed to produce the materials necessary for the average reloader to do the fire-lapping for himself. We see the results today, fire-lapping is a recognized and proven method of accuracy enhancement for many rifled arms. But that's anotrher story.

The S&W constrictions appeared to be caused by the relatively thin barrel walls which combined with the vee thread form to actually push the metal inwards upon tightening. This tendency would appear to be less with a square thread form, but it would still be present to some degree. However IMO the much thicker walls of a rifle barrel (as opposed to a pistol bbl) would serve to minimize the constriction tendency to such a degree that it should be negligible even if it's detectable at all. JMO, I've never measured it.
Good luck, Joe
  
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