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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firearms (Read 18124 times)
Art_Fleming
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opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firearms
Dec 2nd, 2005 at 5:12pm
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Hello everyone,

I'm interested in purchasing a .22 that is appropriate for BPCR style .22 silhouette shooting, and came across the low wall reproductions that Buffalo Arms is offering. These rifles seem much more "affordable" than some others, like the CPA or Ballard reproductions.

Does anyone have any experience with these rifles, and if so, how do they stack up as far as quality and accuracy?

Thanks in advance!

Art
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #1 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 8:00pm
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I am unfamiliar with this rifle. BA could probably furnish you with some more information. I would be particularly interested in who the maker is.

Another possible rifle would be a used BSA Martini Int'l Mk II, Mk III, Mk IV, or Mk V.

These are near perfect for .22 silhouette matches. Lee Shaver was one of if not the first to shoot .22 silhouette at 200 yards and one of the driving forces was the availability of the BSA's at reasonable prices. You can still find a good one in the $600 category. I have three of them and they are ALL tack drivers.

Dale53
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #2 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 10:29pm
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Dale,

The rifles referred to are Winchester low wall reproductions made by Uberti and imported by Cimmaron Arms.  They have several different configurations, including a pistol gripped, DST version with a Helm lever, that looks right stylish.  I don't know how the barrels are in the .22 versions, but several guys I know have CF versions in .40 or .45 calibers, and they seem to shoot pretty good.   Cimmaron is one of the importers that specifies a higher level of fit and finish on the guns they import, from what I hear.

Greg
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #3 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:08am
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Greg;
Thanks for the information. FWIW, my Cimmaron .44 Special Colt Clone is one fine revolver. The finish is far superior to many, many Colts that I have seen. The barrel to cylinder clearance is tight, the trigger trips at 2.0 lbs without a trace of creep, and it shoots extremely well. The only complaint I have at all, it needed to have the sights regulated a bit (that's because it is too much of a Colt Clone Sad.)

If the low walls are made with such attention to detail, they ought to be nice rifles.

Dale53
  
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PETE
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #4 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 9:06am
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Art,

  I haven't checked BA's catalog but going on Greg's message, I owned one of the Win. Low Wall's for a while till Bob (GWarden) decided he needed it more than I did.  Grin I shot it quite a bit at 100 yds. and with a scope mounted on it I thought it did excellent work. I used Wolf Match Target ammo.

  They are not particularly made for target shooting just due to the short light weight barrel. With iron sights this might be a handicap for the .22 Shilouette you're contemplating just due to the short sight radius. I think tho that it should make a decent starter rifle till you see if you like the game, and if not still would make a dynamite small game rifle.

  Bob can fill you in a little more on his experiences.

PETE
  
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GWarden
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #5 - Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:04pm
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Pete
They are a great rifle, but as you mentioned the bbl length and weight are not ideal for really good off hand shooting. I had our gunsmith work the trigger and improve it and then restocked it. Ended up with one very accurate squireel killer. It works out much better for bench shooting than off hand, just my opinion.
Bob
  

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lostriver
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #6 - Dec 17th, 2005 at 12:39pm
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You might look at a stevens walnut hill rifle. they have a heavyer barrel and too high priced but they havent been made for a long time might not be all over and cond. will very
  
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waterman
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2005 at 9:26pm
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There are (or were) a lot of Winder Muskets with bad barrels.  Finding one of those and re-lining would be another way to get started.  They will not shoot as well as one of the frequently mentioned Martinis, but I think they look neater.
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2005 at 11:18am
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I was going to stay out of this because of my oft-noted bias toward the various 'walls when thinking of single shots, but since waterman already mentioned it... Grin

I, too would put my vote in for the Winder 3rd Model Musket (low-wall) IF you can find a beater with a good bore or a good one with a bad bore; in short if you can find anything you could use as a donor for building.  I choose the musket over the standard low-wall because the stock is the same on the former as for high-walls, so it is possible to build a full sized rifle on this action without having to trim down the wood so much.  The barrel threads and breech ring are big enough to take a #3 or larger barrel also.  I have made a .22 rf sporter out of one of these actions, even bending the lower tang for a pistol grip stock, and I am quite happy with the results.   Cheesy

You could do all of this with a high-wall .22 as well, but the high-walls ALL seem to cost more than the fairly numerous low-wall muskets, and the four holes in the side of the low-wall's receiver make it less attractive to those wanting a custom rifle...I just put four plug screws from Brownell's in mine!   Grin  Finally, the low-wall concept was designed to make it easier to load the tiny little rimfire cartridges into the chamber...not an insignificant consideration when shooting quickly before conditions change, or in the cold, or...  Shocked

That's MY story and I'm sticking to it!   
Froggie
  
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MI-shooter
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2005 at 12:16pm
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Is this for BPCR "style" shooting or for an actual BPCR rimfire side match? I am under the impression after reading about the rimfre side match is that the rifles must be the same as the BPCR rifles, ie, must have an outside hammer, which the martini does not have a hammer. Also, I have heard that sights must be non click adjustments where most of the martini sights have clicks. If the hammer thing is not a real issue, the BSA #8 rear sight was made with and without click adjustments, you just need to do a serious search for one. Even though it pains me to say 'walls may be better choices than martini's, the 'ole Froggy may have me on this one.
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #10 - Dec 19th, 2005 at 11:48pm
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MIShooter;
The original 200 yd. BPCR .22 silhouette matches (as run and promoted by Lee Shaver) allowed the Martinis'. However, after the NRA (Johnnie come lately, in this regard) got into it, it may now be limited to "hammer" guns. It would bear checking out before investing money in a rifle that wouldn't be accepted.

Our club solved the whole issue - any safe .22 regardless. As a result, we have a pretty good turn out and it is a successful, if local, program.

Dale53

  
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hst
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #11 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 1:36am
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Dale:

Actually, it is Dave Crossno that has taken over the game and it is his rule requiring the exposed hammer.  Mr. Crossno runs a match at the National Championships which is, as far as I know, completely independent of the NRA. I do not beliive that the NRA recognizes the game.

Mr. Crossno's match at Raton is so well attended that even though it is run over 5 days there is still standing room only. 

Glenn
  
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JDSteele
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #12 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 10:29am
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According to various word-of-mouth reports, the most consistent winners at this type match have been the BPCRS rifles with the little 22LR insert barrels. Maybe the vibration-dampening effect of the foam collars? Other excellent performers have included relined barrels, which would also be subject to the dampening effect of the liner adhesive.

I agree with Dale, just let everyone shoot at least until you have too many shooters or some pattern emerges, then you can re-evaluate the need for any rules or classes.

Personally I'm gonna stick with my little original low wall with #2 GM bbl & Lyman #2 tang peep with #47 windage stem. It ain't the most accurate but it sure is a lotta fun!
Regards, Joe
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #13 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 12:41pm
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JD;
My first (still have it) BPCR .22 silhouette rifle was a 44 Stevens that I had rebarreled with a Shilen barrel and match chamber. It shoots just fine. I used a Parts Unknown Soule rear sight and a Lyman 17A. Until my vision failed me, it was a fine rifle for the sport. It would also qualify for the present rules.

The 44 Stevens is a wonderful rifle for .22 due to the rocking action of the breech block when closing. It will easily seat a full match chambered round. Ballards are OK for the same reason. If low-walls have the original breech block bevel used for .22 rimfires, they will also seat a full match chambered round.

Straight falling blocks are a problem in this regard. You can push one or two rounds in with your thumb then your thumb quits on you (it hurts!). I have a little Remington #2 Rolling Block rifle that I had relined in .22 rimfire match and just the added cross section area on the breech block "ear"was enough to make it comfortable to use. Mine is a lightweight number but if one was rebarreled with a heavier barrel it would work well, also.

The absolutely neatest BPCR .22 Silhouette rifle I have seen is HST's own personal conversion of his Remington Rolling Block BPCR with an insert barrel of his own design and manufacture. When it is installed, which takes only five minutes or so, it operates exactly as if it were the primary cartridge. No auxilary chamber, no fooling around. You just insert a .22, close the breech and shoot. Then just open the breech and it extracts the case, you discard and then reload... It also shoots under an inch at 100 yards. I have seen him shoot a perfect score with irons on our 100 yard range during a match.

Dale53
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 3:20pm
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Dale,

Here's my Stevens 44 in .22 silhouette mode...I have a Parts Unlimited Soule sight for it, and have it set up for a block-mounted front (probably use a Lyman 93).  HST also drilled it for scope blocks when he did the barrel work, and I have cute little Unertl 6X small game scope to try.  If this Green Mountain shoots as good as the .45 barrel on my roller, it'll be a tack driver.  Now, I just have to find time this winter to finish and checker the two stock sets... Roll Eyes

Greg

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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #15 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 4:29pm
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Greg;
That is a good looking rifle in the "white". it's gonna be REALLY nice when finished. 

Congratulations!

Dale53














  
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JDSteele
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #16 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:08am
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Dale, all the original 22rf walls I've seen have had the little scalloped cutout in the block for seating the cartridge, both high and low walls. Have seen a few converted ones with the straight block, but only a few. Also all original 22 rf walls I've ever owned in the Long and Long rifle chamberings have had the shorter match-type chamber requiring a little help with seating. This is a fairly small sample so it's possible that others have had the longer chamber, I've just never seen it in an original rifle. It's easy to add this beveled cutout to just about any single shot falling block if wanted.

BTW the Bentz chamber reamer will solve all those problems & still remain quite accurate, it was developed for accuracy in rifles with no camming action such as the Ruger automatics. I've used it with great success in my 1890 Win pumps as well as several 10/22s I built for my nephews. Would be happy to lend it to you or your chosen smith if you decide to try it some day.
Regards, Joe
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #17 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 2:27pm
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Joe;
I have access to both a Clymer match reamer and a Bentz (auto) match reamer.

You are absolutely correct that the original .22 low-walls had the beveled block. I have seen a number of centerfire to rimfire conversions and of course they do NOt have the beveled block (as you stated).

I mentioned the difference as we don't know the condition and source of the reader's low-walls.

Actually, the BSA Martini Int'l's use the beveled block so that they can and do use conventional match chambers.

From my rather wide experience with .22 rimfire match rifles, there is quite a number of different "match" chamber configurations and most of them seem to work quite well. However, my personal choice, when possible, is the Clymer Match Chamber since I have had such good results in a variety of rifles when using that particular configuration.

Thanks for your most generous offer.

Dale53
  
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Dale53
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #18 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 2:28pm
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Joe;
I have access to both a Clymer match reamer and a Bentz (auto) match reamer.

You are absolutely correct that the original .22 low-walls had the beveled block. I have seen a number of centerfire to rimfire conversions and of course they do NOt have the beveled block (as you stated).

I mentioned the difference as we don't know the condition and source of the reader's low-walls.

Actually, the BSA Martini Int'l's use the beveled block so that they can and do use conventional match chambers.

From my rather wide experience with .22 rimfire match rifles, there is quite a number of different "match" chamber configurations and most of them seem to work quite well. However, my personal choice, when possible, is the Clymer Match Chamber since I have had such good results in a variety of rifles when using that particular configuration.

Thanks for your most generous offer.

Dale53
  
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #19 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:10pm
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Greg, Where'd you get that lever for your Stevens 44? Mine has the original S lever, and I'd sure like to get a lever like your's for my 44!
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #20 - Dec 22nd, 2005 at 7:51am
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Vall,

That's a CPA lever casting.  The only difference I can see in the levers for the 44 and 44 1/2 is the size of the pin/screw holes.

Greg
  
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
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Re: opinions on .22 reproduction BPCR style firear
Reply #21 - Dec 23rd, 2005 at 6:08pm
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thanks Greg! i've got a Pope style I was thinking of adpating to mine, but I sure like the look of your's better!
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