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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) sharps-borchardt (Read 14794 times)
shopgun
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sharps-borchardt
Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:02pm
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I recently bought a collection, and one of the rifles has me baffled. It's a rebarreled , restocked, sharps-borchardt with no markings or ser. #. It's a sporter action in 45-100. The no serial # thing is my question. Could this be an original action
  
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JDSteele
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #1 - Sep 2nd, 2005 at 11:31pm
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Original Borchardts had serial numbers in at least two different places at different times. My early actions have all had their numbers on the bottom ahead of the trigger, while most of my later actions were numbered on the left side below the company logo. But then again I possess a later rifle with 5-digit # on the bottom, so there may have been no pattern.  So yes, your action could be an original with the logo & serial # ground off the left side of the receiver. Close inspection by a knowledgeable person should reveal the truth.

Lotsa luck finding a knowledgeable person, these actions are fairly rare comparatively speaking, & few folks have studied them in depth. Be sure to have a fresh BS filter in place when evaluating opinions. FITZ is about the most knowledgeable person I know on this subject.
Good luck, Joe

PS BTW the Borchardt is arguably one of the top two or three single shot actions of all time, in almost every area except beauty & trigger pull. Although come to think of it that same high-number rifle mentioned above has an impeccable two-pound very crisp pull, fairly easy to obtain by a good workman.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #2 - Sep 3rd, 2005 at 3:24pm
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With all the changes you listed, it may be that the serial number was polished off at the same time. Are you certain it's a Sporter action, and not a military that's been reshaped to sporter look?
  
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PETE
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #3 - Sep 3rd, 2005 at 4:18pm
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Joe, or anybody,

  On the trigger pull of the Borchardt. A friend of mine just purchased one in .45/70. He says he's read an article that said that John King can reduce the trigger pull on them down to about 1#. About all I've read on the subject is it can't be done.

  What's your take on it?

PETE
  
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FITZ
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #4 - Sep 3rd, 2005 at 8:17pm
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Pete, Borchardt triggers can be made good. Lot of work by a craftsman with a lot of patience. One done by many including Zishang was to drill and tap the striker for a set screw where the sear engages. This also required drilling a access hole in the top of the breech block so you could get to the screw to adjust it. This is necessary because if you cannot keep it cocked you cannot get the breech block out of the reciever because the firing pin tip sticks out far enough to hang up in the rim cut in the barrel. My Zischang has been done in this manner and is a nice clean trigger about 1 1/2 lbs. I wish it had his set trigger system but cannot be too fussy. What the real problem is with Borchardt is the striker is not supported well on the back end and so needs a lot of sear engagment in order to work. I hope someday to rework an action by threading the back end of a block and fitting plug that is closely fitted to the striker so it cannot move around on the tail end. This would allow you to then adjust the sear to small engagement and it would be consistant. As to this fellows Borchard not having a number. He needs to look very closely at the bottom of the reciever just ahead of the trigger. I recently had a Borchardt Short Range rifle brought to me to look over. It was in tough shape having at some time been in a house fire but not really burned. The fellow said it has no serial number, I have looked everywhere. Well when I looked at it I was able to see the number, full of crud. And by the way they are stamped with very small numbers probably 1/16" or maybe even smaller, but once we scrubbed it clean with a toothbrush and some Hoppes #9 it came out nice and clear. Prior to that it just looked like a mild disturbance on the bottom surface of the action. So, can the trigger be made good? YES! Would it be expensive? YES! Is it a worthwhile expenditure? YES! Borchardts with their fast, short striker travel can be most accurate. I believe in fact that it is a significant issue when comparing a Borchardt against any Hammer Single Shot. Well enough of my soapbox. Regards, FITZ.
  

FITZ
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JDSteele
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #5 - Sep 3rd, 2005 at 9:36pm
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My later production Borchardt mentioned above has had the sear engagement alteration that FITZ described, and has an impeccable two-pound pull. I haven't tried to adjust it lighter for several reasons but feel sure that one pound is acheivable. John King recently told me that he had several newly-made Borchardt strikers for sale, and I know he's a good workman, so that leads me to believe that he's been experimenting and so can probably do what the article said.

I've had Borchardts with different-sized serial # characters, the early rifles with the numbers on the bottom usually had the small size while the later rifles all seemed to have the larger characters. All my remaining Borchardts have their numbers in front of the trigger but the later 5-digit one is the only one to have the large size. All of my past ones with the number on the  left side have had the larger size characters.

So it's my opinion that the serial number could be in either place but the character size probably changed after about a year of production, somewhere after the 6xxx mark. This opinion is based upon my own Borchardts and their markings, but I've owned only nine originals so the sample size is too small to draw any hard-&-fast conclusions. I've had four early ones with the small serial # characters on the bottom in front of the trigger, four later ones with the larger characters on the left side, and one later one with the larger characters on the bottom in front of the trigger. YMMV.
FWIW, HTH, Joe
  
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PETE
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #6 - Sep 4th, 2005 at 5:39pm
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FITZ & Joe,

  Thanks for the info. I'll pass it along as I think my friend wants to re-barrel, or re-line the one he bought. I've seen a picture of it and if the inside looks as bad as the outside it'll definitely need some work.

  I've read the article mentioning John King as having done the trigger work but nothing on how it was done, or if any alteration was done to get the results.

  Sounds like it would be expensive, as FITZ mentions, but at least it's doable.

  Appreciate both of your responses!

PETE
  
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shopgun
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 8:59am
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Thanks for the info. I looked with a magnifying glass in both locations mentioned, and found nothing. The color case finish is in excellent condition, so it probably is refinished. whoever did it sure knew how to keep his edges sharp where they should be. as to a converted mil action, i'm no expert. it does have the hard rubber inserts that look older than the finish. the tang has an integral base for the soule type sight. the stght ie marked RJIla or something similar, with the # 308 at the base & top of the staff. any idea of value of something like this?
  
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dnovo1
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #8 - Sep 17th, 2005 at 11:17am
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I've got a very rare original sporting Borchardt (shot only very rarely by me) and some military actions, one original configuration and one redone late in the 19th Century as a sporter.  All have serial numbers as described by the other posters.  Sounds like they were removed during refinish.

I also have one of the fine 'modern' versions built so nicely by Al Story, in a 405 Win.  While it is possible that your gun may be built on that action, that is unlikely as the modern construction should be obvious, and there should be a serial number on that action as well.   Al may also be a good source of information on reworking the trigger.  The one on my Story is excellent, and the originals are, sad to say, as much of a pain as you have noted.  Dave
  
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harry_eales
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #9 - Apr 17th, 2006 at 5:43pm
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There is an article in the American Rifleman for Sept 1946 which goes into detail on how to put a good trigger pull on the Sharps Borchardt. It even gives an exploded drawing and screw sizes.

Photocopies of this article are available in the ASSRA Archives.
Contact Rudi Prusok. ASSRA Archival Library. You should be able to Email him via this Forum. I do have his address but I'm not certain it is for public knowledge. The charge is a couple of Dollars plus postage.

Rudi is one of the 'good guys' and very helpfull indeed. I obtained this article from him without problem and I live some 5,000 miles away. It seems to be popular with shooters who use the Borchardt at 1,000 yards. I have seen several photographs of their rifles where the small 'cover' screw at the rear of the breech block is just visible. 

It seems to be a very simple process as long as you have a little engineering experience. If not, it shouldn't be that expensive to have your local gunsmith do it for you. I'll certainly be fitting it to my 'Scratch Built Borchardt' when I get around to machining the Breech Block.

Regards,

Harry
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #10 - Apr 18th, 2006 at 7:19pm
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I like Sharps Borchardts, but their triggers can be a problem. One of the sources of much frustration is the fit of the striker to the little bushing in the back of the breech block. Normally this bushing, that appears as a little button at the back of the breech, is quite worn. Now, if you carefully turn down and true up the rear of the striker and then make a new bushing that fits properly with no play, the trigger will be much improved. When this bushing is loose, every time you cock the striker it takes a slightly different position and the trigger pull changes, which is why you don't want to set them too lightly.

Bob
  
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Brent
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #11 - Apr 19th, 2006 at 8:20am
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I have been studying up on Borchardt triggers a little and all of the above are true.  In addition changing the materials that are actually in contact - the striker and the sear, you can improve the let off.  I have not done this myself, but I understand that welding or sweating a piece of stellite (sp?) to the sear will provide a harder surface and reduce friction to noticably improve the trigger pull.

Also, ensuring that the sear spring is no stronger than absolutely necessary to reset the sear when the action is worked is also helpful.

Brent
  
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FITZ
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #12 - Apr 19th, 2006 at 9:42pm
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Brent, I have seen stellite and or carbide Silver soldered onto the Sear in an effort to improve the trigger with not much benefit. The real issue as mentioned in an earlier post is getting the striker bushed on the back end to keep it from wagging up and down when you want to adjust the sear engagement. I completely disagree with you on the sear spring issue. The more spring pressure you have on the sear the less engagement you can have. Remember when squeezing the trigger you are bucking the poor leverage design of the sear and the engagement of the striker with a heavy coil spring loading the striker. The sear spring is not very strong anyhow being only a small coil about 3/32" diameter. I have run into a few Borchardts with good triggers. One I own a Zischang without his set triggers is excellent with the sear engagement feature. The others have been rifles that showed no evidence of ever having been messed with.  Literally as they left the factory. Just my thoughts. Regards, FITZ.
  

FITZ
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Brent
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #13 - Apr 19th, 2006 at 9:51pm
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Fitz,
I guess we all have our ideas.  As I said, I have not done the stellite thing. It does sound reasonable and the suggestion came from someone who has way more than sufficient credibility so far as I'm concerned.

The sear spring works against trigger pull.  If a lighter sear spring will adequately set the sear into the striker then it will reduce trigger pull accordingly.  There can't be much argument about that.  Whether it's a lot or a little depends on the two sear springs being compared.   

The striker cup idea is an interesting idea that makes complete sense to me, so I don't doubt that it's worth pursuing.  I shall, when next I meet with my gunsmith.   

Brent
  
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tbird1960
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #14 - Aug 15th, 2006 at 12:22pm
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I have a sharps borschardt rebarreled by Creighton Audette. He thought a long time about the bad trigger on the sharps and he then installed a ruger #1 single set trigger in it. This works very well and over the years I have learned to like the single set much better than the double set triggers.
Bill
  

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ken_hurst
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #15 - Aug 15th, 2006 at 1:24pm
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A few years back, I had the honer of engraving the ASSRA gun of the year. This gave me the opportunity to handle and closely examine the gun. I was WOWED by the quality and great trigger. Since then, Bernie Harrell (stocker of gun) told me he has received two more Borchardts for Borchardt Rifle Co. and feels they are even better made --- specifically the trigger which I was impressed with. Al Storie (Maker of and owner of co.) told me he had made some up graded inprovements to the gun before I heard from Bernie. As I have one about to be shipped to me in 45-90 , I was very pleased to hear of the improvements.  Perhaps one could call Al to inquire about buying some of the internal parts  if needed.   Ken
  
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Brent
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #16 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 7:48pm
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Bill,
I've never seen a Ruger with anything but a stock Ruger trigger on it, and all of those were plain triggers.  Can you tell us more about what the heck a Ruger set trigger is, and how it is made to fit a Borchardt?   

I'b be really interested in this if it is feasible today.

Pictures, sources of parts, anything more you can provide would be wonderful.

Thanks,


Brent
  
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COLONEL
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #17 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 8:43pm
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BRENT  i have had two of the single set rugers they were canjar also the same number of boocarts that were in varmint cal. and had good triggers but had probably been mess ed with some. i would think that one of these ole boys could do the work. the canjar is no more  i think. regards,ben.
  
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Brent
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #18 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 9:17pm
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Ben,
I was wondering if it might be a Canjar trigger.  I know they are no more, but perhaps one could buy a Ruger #1 or some other rifle with a Canjar trigger and swap off the trigger.   

Or maybe someone like you would have one lying about, catchin' dust and looking for a good home where no one will bring home a derelict E Brown....

Brent
  
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COLONEL
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #19 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 9:52pm
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BRENT i have not had my papers graded in years. look in the mirror for the rest of the question.  regards,ben.

ps your contempt for me has been noted.
« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2006 at 10:35pm by »  
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moodyholler
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #20 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 10:35pm
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I think you are referring to KEPPLINGER single set triggers for #1 & 3 Rugers. They are very nice. moodyholler
  
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YIMAIM  
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Brent
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #21 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 11:01pm
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moody,
you speak in present tense.  Does that infer that they still are being made?

If so, how could such a beast be fit to the Borchardt?  The more I think about such a coversion, the more I think this would become a major overhall of entire action.

Brent
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: sharps-borchardt
Reply #22 - Aug 19th, 2006 at 11:01pm
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At one time Canjar made an SST specifically for the Ruger, as does Kepplinger today. The Kepplinger is still available through Brownell's. I don't have one handy and so I don't know how it could be adapted to the Borchardt, but the Canjar is very doable. The ASSRA Journal had instructions on the procedure back about 10-15 years ago, I did one for my long range Borchardt at that time. It makes an ugly trigger-&-guard appear to be even uglier IMO. Also FWIW IMO the original Sharps factory Borchardt DST is superior to any other except that it requires one hand to be removed from the rifle in order to set the trigger, much like an SST or Win close-coupled DST. But IMO it's both crisper and faster than any other set trigger on the Borchardt.

But it's mighty rare and mighty ugly.

Contact Rudi for a reprint of the Canjar conversion article, I'll try to look it up in my records.
Regards, Joe
  
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