Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What Action is the Best? (Read 14518 times)
Sharps1874
Ex Member


What Action is the Best?
Aug 22nd, 2005 at 3:28am
Print Post  
OK, I was wondering of the following 3 actions is there any one that stands out better then the others between the Falling Block Action, the Rolling Block Action and the Trap Door Action?   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nailman
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 167
Location: Oswego
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #1 - Aug 22nd, 2005 at 3:49pm
Print Post  
For 200 yard Standing I like the Ballard. They have the best triggers and are easy to load.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #2 - Aug 22nd, 2005 at 4:37pm
Print Post  
Sharps,

  Depends on what you want to do with these actions. If you're into bench only then any of the Falling Block or RB actions will do. If you plan on shooting offhand an action with a side mounted hammer is going to be a slight handicap.

  You'll get many comments on which any one individual will say is best. The thing to remember is what fits you is the best.

  Some people say one particular DST is better than all others. Just remember when that's brought up that ALL SS DST's are based on the two lever Kentucky rifle DST's. They are a little more refined than those, and one particular one might be tuned better than the others, but when you get right down to it they all work the same and the particular one you like is the one to use.

  Unless you just happen to like shooting the Trapdoor, or use it in re-enactments, I'd stay away from it as it's really not suited for formal target or Shilouette shooting. Trigger pulls are pretty bad and most people can't use barrel sights well enuf to be competitive.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JDSteele
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #3 - Aug 22nd, 2005 at 8:54pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Sharps,

   Some people say one particular DST is better than all others. Just remember when that's brought up that ALL SS DST's are based on the two lever Kentucky rifle DST's. PETE



Pretty dogmatic statement there, Pete, and not quite true. I respectfully but firmly draw your attention to the several different types of three- and four-lever set triggers found on the Martinis. Also, Frank de Haas showed details of his self-setting four-lever (I believe) Ballard trigger in one of his books. Of course none of the US factory rifles ever had anything more than the simple two-lever trigger, that's true, but then again there are more single shots made in other parts of the world..........

I DO agree with your statement that the best trigger is the one that works best FOR YOU.
Good luck, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #4 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 2:03pm
Print Post  
Joe,

  Appreciate you clearing that up.

  I probably should have been more clear when discussing DST's. I was assuming we were talking about American made guns.

  Of course you're right about many of the set triggers of foreign make. There are none finer than the 3 and 4 lever German Schuetzen rifles, and the 3 lever on my Steigele Martini action is better than any American made two lever.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mes
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 487
Location: Van Dyne, Wisconsin
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #5 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 2:30pm
Print Post  
And the more levers the slower the lock time.
  

Martin Stenback
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sharps1874
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #6 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 4:55pm
Print Post  
Hello Everyone,

Perhaps I should have explained why I was asking these questions about the 3 different types of actions. I’m asking about them because I know so very little about them. My Sharps is a Falling Block. I was and I still am curious about the differences in the 3 different actions. I’m also interested in how mine differs in comparison tot eh others. I did not intend to start up a battle over this question. I do appreciate all of the input that I have received, and I’m more the wiser about the different actions. I hope that this helps everyone out there on what and why I asked the question that started this topic, thanks for everyone’s help. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
First_Shirt
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #7 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 7:38pm
Print Post  
Mr. Sharps,

If you don't have a copy, get a copy of Frank DeHaas' book "Single Shot Rifles and Actions".  It is a MUST HAVE for any single shot enthusiast, and the author goes into detail (with very nice illustrations) about many of the fine early actions.  I've had my copy for over 20 years, and have durn near worn the ink off the pages.  even after all these years, it sits prominately on my nightstand, in easy reach!

Greg
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JDSteele
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #8 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 8:06pm
Print Post  
What Greg said, and plenty of it!
Regards, Joe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #9 - Aug 23rd, 2005 at 10:46pm
Print Post  
Martin,

  Your statement might be true, but I don't think many could tell the difference in the time, considering that the internal hammer versions of Adyt and Martini actions would have about 1/4 the travel distance as an external hammer such as is prevalent on American Schuetzen rifles. So, what you say might be true, but.....

  It would be an interesting test to see how the lock times actually do compare. I don't believe I've ever read of such a test.

  And unless an American action was tuned by an expert it can't be SAFELY set to the minimum trigger pulls a factory 3 or 4 lever system can.

  Now I'm certainly not against any American trigger system. I use several of them all the time, and only own one 3 lever.

  Sharps1874,

  Don't mistake a discussion of the various trigger systems as a battle. Far from it. This is how the "newbies" learn something. It only becomes a battle when someone sees they can't win the discussion and have to bring personalities into it.

  Someone mentioned they liked Ballards for offhand shooting. I think Ballards are a decent action, but, I'm not overly fond of them for offhand shooting because getting a grip suitable for offhand shooting with my Ballard requires me to move my hand to far forward in order to get my trigger finger situated so I get a straight pull back. Things don't feel secure.... to me. This could probably be corrected by going to a better lever design, but I'm not going to alter a Schoyen to do it. My problem!

  I happen to prefer SST's or CCST since I can get my trigger finger around in front of the trigger to suit me, plus get a decent hold of the rifle, and do it with standard levers. Some have mentioned on other threads here that they think SST's aren't any good, or at least far inferior to a DST.

  You want to know what actions we consider best. Well triggers are probably the one most important item in deciding which action to use. I don't think anyone makes a set trigger for the Trapdoor, and altho there are some set triggers for RB's I haven't seen any I thought would equal those of falling block actions....... Again, I own one and that's my opinion.

  So that leaves you with side hammer, centrally hung hammer, and internal hammer lever guns. I own guns in all three! Personally I wouldn't use a side hammer gun for target work, due to the fact they create more movement to the action on let-off, and the hammer fall time is longer than the central or internal varieties.

  That leaves you with the three major American lever gun models, a few European internal hammer guns, and the Ruger #1 or #3. There are a few low production actions around, but I like to keep my comments to something you can readily get ahold of. If you can find a smith who knows how to tune & setup the Ruger that would probably be your best bet.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #10 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 4:28am
Print Post  
Pete,
Aren't you forgetting a type - the striker-fired ones?  after all, those usually have the fastest locktimes...    Then again, we're not talking Sharps (unless the 1878), RB or Hiwall.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #11 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 3:21pm
Print Post  
MartiniB,

  There are probably quite a few actions that are out there that can be used, and might be better than any of those mentioned so far.

  But, I like to talk about the ones I'm familiar with, and have, or, have had experience with, and leave the rest to those familiar with them. As such I've kept my remarks to those actions that are readily available. Actions such as the Hoch, which I've owned, are decent actions, but I didn't comment on it since finding one would be pretty hard to do. I'm not one of those guys who does his shooting with a typewriter, so in many cases my experience with particular actions is lacking.

  I'm always interested in hearing about some ACTUAL comparisons between action types not readily available and the more common types, or even with those I've never shot compared with those I have.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Ex Member


Different action types
Reply #12 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 4:02pm
Print Post  
I have to say that I'm not really the guy to do the comparisons either - all I have are Martini's, and a single Ruger #1.  Ah yes, true, I also have a Swinburn, but that one basically is a V-spring Martini with internal hammer...
I'm prejudiced, of course, but I do like my Martini's...
users.pandora.be/Gert.Claes1/swissfraaction.jpg
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
singelshotman
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #13 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 4:38pm
Print Post  
I prefer the Remington hepburn-Even through i'm left-handed , i've got one at a gunsmith being rebuilt now-it was in horrible shape only the barrel threads could be described as first class, everything else was poor-but i only paid $72.00 for it on a auction site that shall remain nameless(less they ban me for buying guns there). The last one i had was stolen in 1979 so it's been a long time between drinks. It's going to have a new tang welded on and be surface ground to remove the pits from it-but i did salvage the original extractor. I'm going to make it 45-70(cause i've got a reamer in that size)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
singleshot
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline


I love singleshots!

Posts: 330
Location: Fort Mill, SC
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #14 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 7:52pm
Print Post  
OK, I was wondering of the following 3 actions is there any one that stands out better then the others between the Falling Block Action, the Rolling Block Action and the Trap Door Action?  
[/quote]

My answer to THIS question is: FALLING BLOCK!
Roll Eyes
  

Willis Gregory, aka singleshot
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Green_Frog
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


"It ain't easy being green"
ASSRA Life #281

Posts: 3914
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Joined: Apr 18th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #15 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 10:22pm
Print Post  
One point that has not been addressed is that different applications (end uses) may affect your perception of which action is better.  There is no answer that fits all applictions, IMHO, at least.  8)

For sheer strength, the Sharps will arguably come out 'way ahead, and other than the fact that it is so large it is a pretty good candidate for best all-around action, but then again no one would ever call the #1 roller or the Springfield trapdoor action dainty either!   Cheesy

The set trigger aspect is certainly one to consider, but I understand that it IS possible to get aftermarket SSTs for both the roller and the 'door, and of course there a bunch of Sharps with the DST, so that is a wash as well.

I guess I am finally getting to the fact that all three of the actions you mention have something to recommend them, depending on what YOU want to get them to do.  What is MY personal answer to the question as it appears in the first post itself?




The high-wall is a falling block action and I like it best of all!  That's my story and I'm sticking to it!   Grin

Froggie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ray_Newman
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 274
Location: Washington State
Joined: Jul 13th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2005 at 11:35pm
Print Post  
Green frog: I agree 'bout the M 1885 High Wall, & I'll add the M1878 Sharps-Borchardt.

I once knew an Old Time Shooter who claimed that the best aspect about the Remington Pattern Rolling Block was the "ear" on the block. He claimed that w/ a judicious application of a boot heel, the Shooter could aeat a problemmatic cartridge!
  

ASSRA Life #194
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Corky
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 119
Location: Land O Lakes, FL
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #17 - Aug 26th, 2005 at 4:15pm
Print Post  
Although I have several different actions now, when I started shooting singleshots I reseached diligently to decide which action I should base my rifle on.  One piece of information that I read influenced my decision more than others.  That was that other manufacturers used the Winchester 1885 as a basis for their proof rifles.

I felt that if other manufacturers had that much confidence in the Highwall action, it was good enough for me.

And besides, Frog likes them!

Corky
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dale53
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 810
Location: Southwestern Ohio
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #18 - Aug 26th, 2005 at 9:18pm
Print Post  
I must say, up front, that I am not a particular enthusiast for any particular single shot action. Different actions are "more" suitable for certain uses than others.

For instance, I am a serious fan of .22 rimfires. The high wall Winchester, while an extremely well designed and especially well machined action is NOT one of my favorite for a .22 rimfire. It is awkward to load and manage the small .22 rimfire cartridge with a high wall. I like the low-wall better for the .22 rimfire cartridge, but it is still not one of my favorites (unless it has the original beveled top breechblock). There is a reason for my preferences regarding the rimfire:

The .22 rimfire uses fixed ammunition with lead bullets (everyone knows that, of course). It is VERY advantageous to have a .22 rimfire with a match chamber. My favorite type of match chamber (they come in various flavors) is a Clymer. It engraves the bullet of the fixed .22 rimfire almost to the case mouth ensuring proper bullet alignment with the bore - this has a very positive effect on accuracy. The problem comes in in seating a rimfire in this tight, match, chamber. A straight falling block action does not do this well. Your thumb will last thru about two seatings of a cartridge before it becomes too sore to continue (been there, done that). The original low-wall chambered for the .22 rimfire had/has a bevel top edge to the breech block which will work with this particular type chamber. 

One of my favorite actions for the .22 rimfire is the lowly 44 Stevens. The Stevens has a "rocking block" action that very nicely seats the fixed ammunition in a match chamber. I have an original 44 Stevens that I had re-barrelled with a Shilen match barrel with Clymer match chamber. It handles extremely well and shoots with match authority. The 44½ Stevens also has this property. Both of them lower the breech block out of the way of the barrel end making it easy to "find" the chamber to insert the tiny .22. The Ballard has long been a favorite of the .22 shooters because of it's seating action and ready access to the chamber. It is also one of my favorites.

Probably the absolute best value in a totally favorable action for .22 rimfire use (serious target work) is the BSA Int'l series. That is my personal choice for serious bench work. 

There are other considerations, of course. Trigger availability is one of those. The CPA Stevens 44½ is available with double set triggers. The Ballard, as made in Cody, Wyoming, as well as originals, is available with double set triggers. The low-wall Winchester is available with dbl set triggers. The BSA's are no longer made but there are still a good number of them available. They are not available with dbl set triggers, but the latest issues (Mk III, IV, and V) can be adjusted quite light (around 8 ounces) for a really quality, trigger pull with extremely fast lock time.

Center fire is another ball game entirely.

Dale53
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sharps1874
Ex Member


Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #19 - Oct 5th, 2005 at 1:03am
Print Post  
                      All of you have helped me in understanding the different actions and why each of you prefer the one that you have. It has been of great help listening to all of what has been shared. 

                      I finally received my Sharps Rifle, and well it’s an incredible site to look at. I’m sure that I’m going to have years of fun with my rifle. Under normal circumstances, I usually play around with the new things that I get before reading the owners manual, yet with the Sharps I’ve decided to read everything first. So far this has been a wise decision. 


           Good news, the end of the hunting season has turned out very good for me. I ended up with a very good Blacktail on the last Wednesday of the season about 2 weeks ago. One of the other hunters from the club pushed it my way and all I had to do was sit my butt down and wait for it to run to me. My buck turned out to be a very nice 3 pointer with exceptional eye guards. 2 days later, my Dad killed his deer, a nice fork horn with tall forks. It was great seeing my Dad kill what may be the last deer hill shoot in his life. I think at the age of 78 that he has hunted his last year. Most of the deer this season on the ranch that I hunt on killed their deer in the last few days of the season. We were lucky this year that we were in the rut that last 3 weeks of the season. The same thing happened last year. I ended up with the best buck of the season on the ranch. I’ll get my plaque for that this Saturday at the end of the season hunting party. This will be my second one since we started scoring in 1993. And I already picked up my deer meat from my butcher last Sunday. 

           I’m getting ready to get the last of my reloading stuff. Soon I’ll be shooting my Sharps. 


           OK, how has everyone else done? It’s been very quiet from all of you. 

           
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Joe_S
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 986
Joined: Jun 29th, 2004
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #20 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 10:53am
Print Post  
As has been stated before, the answer to your question depends on what you want to do .  If you want to use it for rimfire competition, the BSA MKII falling block is as good as any and better than most. For target work, the RB and Sharps are usually chambered in cartidges that are larger than the traditional Schuetzen cartirdges but are fine for the old traditional black powder cartridges.  The Sharps is probably the least reliable.   The trapdoor does not have a metal tang for mounting a tang sight, but if you build one up from parts you can have one put on. In that caase the Trapdoor can be very competitive with the sharps and rolliing block, with a good barrel and trigger job. I have fired well over 20,000 45-70s in several Sharps and Trapdoors, and never had to replace a part on a trapdoor, cant say that for the Sharps. Loading and unloading the trapdoor is very fast. The three position tumbler on the trapdoor is a nice safey feature for hunting.  The trapdoor is plenty strong enough for smokeless loads in the old blackpowder velocities. Did I say I was a trapdoor fan?  So if you want it for centerfire comepetition or hunting , trapdoor is a viable option. I like them all, but the trapdoor is certainly one of the most reliable and well made. Joe S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #21 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 8:57pm
Print Post  
I guess I'll throw my two cents in on this one.
As these three actions mentioned go, I prefer the falling block. But I can't say overall that I like one maker's gun overall more than another. The Winchester 1885 has a lot of strong design features, as does your Sharps. I prefer the center hung hammer of the Win. over the Sharps, but I can't say it's stronger than the Sharps 1874.
For triggers, I prefer the Ballard DST as they seem to stay adjusted forever, and feel great to me. I also like the Ballard's camming action on the breechblock.
The Stevens action (44 1/2) is a favorite of mine also, for it's strength, and ability to seat a cartridge that's a litle snug. 
The Rolling Block is a great action,and easy to load and fire from the bench, without the hassle of an underlever. Likewise the Re, Hepburn is even better, with it's side lever, but not much leverage if a stuck case is encountered, due to the small lever. Still it's a favorite for me.
The Trapdoor has never really interested me. The design has a lot of history, and I can see why it's got a lot of following, but just never got attracted to one.
I too would wholly endorse Greg's rec. about DeHaas' book! I don't know what I did before I bought it, but I'd never be without it!
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Quarter_Bore
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 817
Location:   
Joined: Dec 16th, 2005
Re: What Action is the Best?
Reply #22 - Dec 17th, 2005 at 4:29pm
Print Post  
Falling block. Designed later and better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint