Forrest,

  I have shot down to as low as 30 degrees using SPG and the results... no test..... seemed to be about as good as any higher temp.

  But in our testing with smokeless and the NRA lube things seem to go down hill when the temp. gets under 60 degrees.

  The late Claude Roderick believed that you have to "temper" your lube for the temperature. I corresponded with hm for about two years before he died and he sent me a copy on what he felt was the proper temper for his particular lube at the different temperatures.

  I haven't tried his lube out, or the different tempers, since to me, when it gets below about 50 degrees I'm thinking more on keeping my fingers warm than concentrating on my shooting.

PETE

Barry,

  Interesting! I was always under the impression that lube had to be soft enuf to flow under the pressures exerted on it from firing. If the lube was to stiff because of the temp. this wouldn't occur well enuf to keep the bore from Leading. Plus if the lube wasn't soft enuf it would tend to impede the bullets movement down the barrel; and as the barrel warmed under subsequent shots this would alter the flow characteristics of the lube and thus the bullets movement down the bore. Between groups the barrel would cool and you'd have to start all over again.

  Granted this might not be noticeable on the target and would depend on the temper of the lube in relation to the air temp.

PETE

  I have shot down to as low as 30 degrees using SPG and the results... no test..... seemed to be about as good as any higher temp.

PETE,

I have to go to Salt Lake City right now but for the moment I'd like to say that I have found that my Javelina smokeless lube does not deliver its best perfromance at lower temperatures.

More later.
Forrest

Pete etal,

BRRRRR, anthing below 50 degrees is not fit for humans to be subjected to. In my younger days I didn't know that  .

Ed

  Have a safe trip..... I'll agree about the Javelina as I use the same lube for my smokeless loads. What we've found is that at about 60 degrees, and below, there is a slight decrease in accuracy.

PETE,

I no sooner filed the Flight Plan, went out to preflight, fueled the airplane and got in for departure when the trip canceled.

So.

My story about the Javelina is that I cut the NEI 458-555-PB "Gunn" bullet to suit my fancy one day, turning the first two grease grooves into a nose-riding 0.451 diameter ahead of the driving bands.

I did the initial testing in temperatures cooler than really comfortable but nothing really tough. My loading notes are home you see, but to our point the load provided reasonable accuracy at short range but left the skuffing of light leading toward the muzzle of my rifle.

Ah! I said: Lube failure! 

Not enough to do the job was my conclusion and I didn't load any more of those bullets again until just before the Montana 1000 yard championship. It was hot by then of course and I only loaded these bullets because they were the heaviest I had at the time.

They did quite well! Accuracy was pretty good and there was never a bit of "wash" or leading whatever.

I concluded as this thread has: The stuff needs to be fairly warm in order to function as intended.

P:  The SPG, on the other hand, works well down to at least 30 degrees, which is as far as I've gone.

F: That is nice to know.

I have some SPG look-alike in my #2 sizer; next time out this winter I'll grease some of them up with it and try the loads side-by-side with others greased with Javelina.

P: Your starting out at -10 deg.'s is way beyond what I care to do. Used to walk up Fox in colder temp.'s than that but I think I'd freeze to death sitting at a bench.

F: Certainly! The morning began at -10 but soon warmed up to reasonable shooting temperatures: Something like 35 or so as I recall. Warm sunshine and no wind to speak of.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest,

  Interesting test, and glad you took the time to post it.

Quote:


  35 is still plenty cold for me. Guess they just make them tougher out WY. 

  I would have thought even after turning the bullet down to suit there would still have been very shallow grease grooves left. Were the grease grooves shallow enuf that they disappeared?

  Not sure if SPG "look a like" will do the trick as well but if it's softer than Javelina it might be worth a try to see what happens. Let us know how it works out!

PETE

Barry,

Quote:


  The sarcasm is noted! Sorry.

  In todays world of BP shooting either wiping or blow tubing is considered the norm. As I read the above you feel that it isn't?

PETE

Barry,

 No problem! I'm probably being particularly obtuse these last few days. Sometimes I don't get it and ramble off somewhere other than what the intent of the message was.

 Probably ought to take time off for a while and let somebody elses message counter catch up to mine.

PETE

P.S. Just saw on BP-L that you are being referred to as "Homer" Darr in reference to what your Darr lube consisted of.  Fame is sure fleeting, isn't it?

Barry, or Homer, whichever the case may be,

  Quote:


 I should have remembered this. As you say, there might be a difference between that and fixed ammo. Most, if not all, of my cold weather shooting is done hunting with fixed ammo, so other than a coupla times in 40 to 50 degree weather, I haven't really tested out the lube/fouling question.

 With fixed ammo, in some calibers, you can feel the resistance building up the more you shoot. With either breech seating or fixed. Especially the under .28 calibers. The colder it gets the worse it is.

On the fixed ammo issue that was why I asked the question to Forrest wondering if as this lube/fouling builds up in the throat will it push the bullet back into the case? Would it be better to work up a load with the bullet set back in the throat a little?

 I've found for cold weather hunting using cast Lead bullets you have to change your load slightly, or adjust your sights just due to what I imagine is partially due to the added resistance in the barrel. I'm not sure that the slight loss of accuracy you get is due to the slower burn of the powder...... lower MV..... or the bullet being deformed by the lube/powder residue.

 Lots of interesting questions for someone who likes to shoot in cold weather!

PETE

Forrest,

  Quote:


  I did look at the NEI catalog of your bullet, but possibly it's not the same one you are talking about since it doesn't have a GG in front of the front band. In the catalog I have, which is an old one the bullet you mention is the.458-555  #349J  Gunn Long Range.

  But actually the reason for asking if there was any lube groove left, it looked as if the lube grooves were machined off there might be some GG left, albeit it would have to be a thin. Altho the picture is supposed to be dimensionally correct, working with that close of tolerances it was hard to tell whether any GG was left.

  So, with that out of the way...... Yes, it does look like a pretty good BP bullet, but then Dick Gunn is pretty good at designing that kind. Dick & I hashed over a design for my .50 cal. and Walt put it in his inventory. Proved to be a very good bullet and I won quite a bit of hardware with it.

  As for the Postel..... It's a pretty hard design to beat so it didn't surprise me to see you think it's the best one you've tried so far.

PETE

Steve,

  Well, I can't say for sure. I assume it was originally made for smokeless Schuetzen shooting as that's what Claude was most interested in. But refreshing my mind on it I don't see why it couldn't be used for BP.

  If you like I can scan it and send it to you. Send me an email at 10x@adiis.net and I'll get on it right away.

  By the way.... Congrats on your NCOWS Buffalo Match win this Fall. That was a GREAT score. I know. Been there, done that! 

PETE - M'town

Forrest,

  Like I said, I think the picture I'm looking at and the one you're referencing are two different ones. On the picture I have the driving bands are over the nose diam. so if you machined off the GG's to nose/bore diam. that would still leave a very shallow GG.

  Quote:


  The NEI catalog number shows it as .512-600 378E  Gunn 50 The actual wgt. using 1-25 is 605 grs.

PETE

Forrest,

  As I get it NEI can make you a mould a coupla thou. bigger, but I would imagine that for anything smaller they would have to make a new cherry. That's kinda expensive tho. I had Walt make one up many years ago and it cost $150 at that time. Hard telling what a new cherry goes for these days.

  You're losing me here tho. Does your daughter work for NEI? Or.....?

PETE