David, Well, as far as I can see you answered your own question when you said if you tip the barrel left or right the bullet strike will go left or right. That was my point. Vertical isn't the only error there is. Canting the gun in any direction induces error which, as you know, has been felt for over a 125 yrs. to be best corrected with the use of a spirit level sight. Now, whether this can be mathematically figured I don't know, as I must have missed that class when they taught it. Joe, If, as you say the angle of departures you listed amount to approx. 6" at 500 yds. that will, if everything else is perfect, score a 10 instead of an X. In Shilouette shooting where it is figured that a load with an accuracy of 2 MOA or 10" at 500 yds. is the minimum needed to hit the Ram. Add this 6" of error to minimum load requirements and it's not hard to see you're getting pretty close to a miss. Another point I think you are missing. That is personal sighting error (PSE). The ability to resolve a given distance at any given range. I mentioned in my last post that I did not feel handicapped much against a scope while using irons at 100 yds., but felt a scope would beat me out at 200 yds. and further. A simple test for PSE is to mount your gun solidly on the bench, and at any given distance you choose, have an asisstant move a box around, with target attached, until, looking thru the sights, you determine that the sights are lined up perfectly. The asistant marks a point thru the center of the target, then moves the box and you start all over again, until you have 10 points marked. Measure the group at it's widest point and that is your PSE. With training this can be reduced, but there will always be some error, and this must then be added to any of the other "personal" errors you induce into the shooting equation. For arguments sake lets say you have a PSE of 1" at 100 yds. Just running this out on a straight line increase will get you 5" at 500 yds. But, as any eye doctor will tell you this isn't necessarily the truth, because that would mean that at 500 yds. you can resolve the difference between 5" and 6". The truly great shooters probably can, but most of us can't, and the older we get the worse it gets. That's the reason the black on a 600 yd. target is so large. If only the 6" X ring were black many people would have a hard time seeing it. The point I'm trying to make is that fixating on whether a spirit level sight is really necessary or not, just doesn't cover even a small part of shooting. A spirit level sight isn't all there is to shooting well at any distance. It is just one of the tools a shooter can use in their quest for a perfect score. If you can eliminate even a part of the canting error this equates to a slightly better score. Your idea of a bar set horizontally to some arbitrary point might work out ok. But, many of us believe that the spirit level sight would allow you to more easily line up the rifle correctly. Your argument that noticing whether a bar is level is quicker than a spirit level sight, or not, might be valid, altho I still think you would have to check it at some point in your shot consciously to be sure it is level. It would seem to me that glancing at both it would be easier to tell if the bubble was centered than if a bar was level. Good discussion. Gets me thinking about the various possibilities. PETE
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