Ray,

  Well, the info I have is pretty old so might be out of date.

  The way I get it is that alloys of Lead & Tin do not appreciably harden over time, altho I do know shooters who feel that you should leave this type bullet sit for a month before shooting.

  Alloys that contain Antimony will self harden over a period of 20 to 30 days and then slightly soften.

  Self hardening will only go so far so quite a few of the CBA shooters will harden them further by either dropping them directly from the mould into a pail of water, or will put them in an oven and soak them for a given length of time and then immediately drop them into water. Again, they will let these sit for about a month before using them so the hardness will stabilize.

  I've never gotten into this so what I've wrote is general in nature and from what I've read in CBA's "The Fouling Shot" over the years. I'm sure if you need exact info there will be someone here who can provide that.

PETE

Ray, how come yer always askin' these thought-provokin' questions?

The article you're seeking is in The Fouling Shot/The Cast Bullet issue #89 Jan-Feb 1991 and was written by Dennis Marshall in response to a question by OH McKagen. It's fairly extensive & gives probably more info than some folks might want, but I've copied it anyway & will mail it to you whenever I can get one of them tuit thingies.

There are other articles on heat-treating bullets (both to harden and to soften them) scattered throughout the issues, but this one gives the best explanation of the mechanisms and results.
HTH, Joe

BTW the CBA is a really neat org for ASSRA shooters, our own FAsmus as well as Wayne Schwartz and others have written for their magazine. The back issues have a LOT of good info.

Bob,

  Well, I'm going to try a first for me and cast up about 2000 bullets for the Krag so I can shoot the CBA's military matches next Summer. So will be able to give you a definitive answer then as I have several targets shot with fresh bullets, and if there's any definitive difference it should show up then.

PETE

I've read and heard many times that one should not use "old" cast bullets; ones that have been carried over from one summer's shooting till the next spring. I've read that changes take place  in hardness, and change in diameter also. 

Bob,

I think we have to keep the bullet separate from the cartridge here.

I, like the fellows below in this thread, really like to shoot well-aged bullets! I love it when I locate a box of "Match" bullets a year or even two after they've been cast. I know then that they are stablized as per hardness and size such that a fellow may reduce at least a couple of the variables we contend with when shooting cast bullets.

On the other hand, a fellow should approach old ammunition loaded with cast bullets with rather low expectations! I have it on good "range authority" that shooting cartridges loaded much longer than a week or two will toss the uncalled flyer even when shooting a proven combination.

We could ask for reasons and/or speculations why this might be so here on-line. Right-off I don't really know for sure why.

I do not know this for an actual proven fact. But I always make sure my "record" shells are fresh!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest,

  Quote:


  About the only reason I've heard for this fresh vs old ammo is that the lube in cast bullets will over time tend to "lock" in. The article I read on it said the author had set up a jig of some sort to test how much it took to pull fresh and old cartridges, and if there were any differences between any cartridge in each group. His conclusions were that it took more pressure to pull old ammo and individual cartridges in the old batch varied quite a bit. New loaded bullets pulled easier and were more consistent over the batch.

  I haven't tried to verify this, but since reading it I always use loaded ammo no older than two days for match shooting.

  As for leaving bullets set for a while or use them fresh, is a good question. Personally I usually shoot fresh bullets, but I know shooters who won't shoot anything fresher than a month old. From the way we all shoot in our club I can't really say one way is better than another. Considering the accuracy we can achieve with PB Lead bullets I'm not sure if you could tell the difference.

PETE

Joe,

  Neat idea about re-seating bullets a bit to break them free. I can see how this would probably work very well with jacketed ammo. But, I wonder if bullet lube when locked into the case would leave a clean surface when broke free. Or, if froze ammo on firing would leave a ring or part of a ring of lube. If so then possibly this might score the sides of the base and be the real cause of inaccuracy in old ammo.

  As for doing a test on the idea, I just don't have any cartridges that have been laying around for any length of time. As I mentioned I load up any cartridges I'll need for the weekend on Thursday or Friday, and any left over I'll shoot down within a day or two during the following week.

Just checked to be sure and all I have are about a dozen PP .45/70's. Since they are loaded with BP I'm not sure if seating them deeper would be off much help since they are loaded against compressied powder, and I don't have any jig to pull them.

PETE

  Neat idea about re-seating bullets a bit to break them free. 

PETE,

Your first post and this one read well.

We shooters here in Sheridan think the problem of shooting old ammunition is to do with unequal bullet-pull with shells that have been loaded for an over-long period of time.

I have at least partly overcome this in some loads by intentionally loading to excess overall length and letting the rifle "seat" the bullet upon chambering the round. This will only work when shooting rilfes with some sort of power associated with closing the breech as in Ballards, Stevens and so forth. 

I certainly would not work with BP over a copressed load or some of the smokeless loads I use that are loaded over compress powder and inert cerial of some kind.

Good evening,
Forrest

An interesting idea I hadn't thought about. What would be your thinking on fouling building up in the throat and then causing OAL to vary?


PETE,

Keep in mind that I'm primarily a smokeless shooter. The OAL length would only change when shooting a smokeless load that either uses no filler at all or one thatwith T/P, Poly filler or some other kind of easily compressable material over the powder.

It will not apply to compressed Black due to no space available for the bullet to move back into. And it won't work for loads like some of mine which use compressed inert material such as Hominy Grits as filler.


P:  This is something that has bothered me for many years. Since we have to loosen up neck tension to the point where the bullet isn't deformed I've often wondered if this was still tight enuf so the bullet wouldn't be pushed back as the throat fouls.

F: Here I must certainly acknowledge your far greater expiereince in shooting Black. 

My limited shooting with Black seems to indicate that it is possible to soften the fouling enough (by either blow tube or wiping) that a bullet will fit easily into the origin of rifling in a very simular fashion as it does when shooting smokeless.

P:  I know many feel that best accuracy is gotten by seating the bullets varying amounts off the rifling, but this hasn't been my experience over the years.

F: This factor seems to be up in the air for me as well. In fact, I have not run a test for it for many years.

In shooting the M1895 with either the long range SAECO as compared to the hunting NEI that there is a great deal of difference in "bullet-jump" but both loads preform very well.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

  Guess I got to jumping around to much between smokeless and black.

  My wondering about fouling buildup in the throat was directed at smokeless.

PETE,

I am the fellow who has done some considerable testing along the lines of cleaning/not cleaning the cast bullet rifle and so can offer you some results.

The rifle the two of us first met over is my Big Fifty, so it has not only relivence but is a known item.

I got this rifle assembled and began shooting it with smokeless last spring. I did the usual loading and shooting in search of a combination that worked with a couple different bullets over several different kinds of smokeless powder.

Then, when I had an initial load that showed promise I fired it for consistency and practice. It didn't prove out and I worked up another load and tested again for consistency. So far this latest combination has worked very well.

All this shooting wound up a total of over 1000 rounds over the course of the summer and during that time (heaven forbid) I never so much as passed a cleaning rod down the barrel at all. Not even to look for possible leading or other fouling related problems. Also keep in mind that the barrel was bran-new, never fired until I headed for the range the first day.

The lube build-up you note did not in fact happen to me in shooting the Big Fifty. The last shot fired before going into  black power testing was a hit in the 15 inch group at 1000 yards. After shooting black of course the rifle was cleaned carefully.

I have lost count of the rounds fired through my 44/63 Ballard on the CPA Stevens. I know I have not cleaned it this year at all.

I once had a Remington 40X in 300 Winchester that I ran through a 1000 round cast bullet no-cleanig test a long time ago and wrote about in the CBA's Fouling Shot. Nobody believed me I don't think.

It is my view (Not written in stone by the way) that a good accurate cast bullet rifle, when used with a good dependable load will deliver its best performance indefinately with no cleaning at all unless a fellow does something silly like drop it in the dirt or shoot a load that screws things up in a hurry.

P:  Even tho smokeless is considered by many to not foul the barrel this isn't the case with cast Lead bullets. The lube will slowly build up in the throat and I'm just wondering if this will push the bullet back into the case as it builds up. If it does, then will this affect accuracy?

F: If the lube does build up it sure would affect the chambering of cartridges as you say. I, however, have not seen it in practice.

I have heard from some of the fellows shooting high velocity benchrest cast bullets that lube build-up is a problem. I figure they must know what htey're talking about but it is a different game they are playing than my semi-slow more conventional cast bullet shooting.

P:  Many believe that .22 RF's need to be fired x number of rounds after they have been cleaned before they will shoot their best. A number of interesting articles by Bill Calfee in Precision Shooting during the past year point this up rather graphically. If this pertains to .22 RF then why shouldn't it pertain to other cast bullets?

F: The 22 RF is known for this. Some folks think the 22RF may be fired indefinitely with little attention. I myself was of this school until last spring when I cleaned the 22RF barrel of the CPA Stevens after shooting it all winter in the indoor Scheutzen Matches we hold here. It was leaded up something terrible! An air-gaged Douglas barrel and all the trick stuff shooting CCI Standard Velocity. I couldn't figure it out but you may be sure I'll be looking at it more carefully this coming season!

To address your question more directly I'd say that, sure, a regular center fire CB rifle is subject to a certain amount of "seasoning" before accuracy stabilizes but nothing above 1 or 2 rounds starting from clean I'd say.

P:  I clean my .22 RF's no more than twice a year, but do clean my cast bullet CF's after every outing. I've always done it this way so don't know if I'm missing something or not.

F: I do not clean the Marlin M39A very often at all. The last time I checked it was when the CPA 22RF leading scared me into looking at it and it proved to be just fine: No leading or other problems. I clean the CPA Douglas barrel every spring when I change it off for the center-fire barrel. At that time it goes into storage all summer.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

I've read this cleaning argument for years and have one interjection to make. I had a Bresein barreled 32/40 shooting 14.5 IMR4227 and Remington 2 1/2 primers, bullet with Darr lube. I did not clean it after shooting, and the barrel corroded-after cleaning one could see the roughness in the barrel. Not a lot, but enough to convince me. I know, you haven't ever cleaned and never had a problem. But.
joe b.