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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spotting Scope Power (Read 41248 times)
Dale53
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #15 - May 3rd, 2004 at 11:40pm
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Pete;
I just received a Harrel Schuetzen measure and Sinclair measure stand along with a couple of extra bottles.

Nice jewelry for shooters! Wink

Dale53
  
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DonH
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #16 - May 4th, 2004 at 6:15am
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Dale;

I live maybe 5 miles away from Sinclair and can tell you that walking in to their retail counter can give a guy the shakes! 

The picture of the scope stand in the catalog was taken at our home range I believe and our benches are either 2x12 or 4 " concrete. I occasionally share the range with Fred Sinclair which is enjoyable. He shoots mostly cast bullets while there, but I haven't been able to convert him to single shots yet.

Don
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #17 - May 4th, 2004 at 9:30am
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I know every year I buy myself one present from the Sinclair catalog. This year it was the stand. 

40 Rod
  
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PETE
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #18 - May 4th, 2004 at 9:42am
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Dale53,
  I bought a Harrel Schuetzen measure last year, and I'm not sure I'm entirely satisifed with it. I think Reddings 3BR, which I have also, is every bit as good as the Harrel, and cheaper.

  The thing that bothers me is the powder cavity. Working the way it does as the slide moves in and out I think the "clicks" will not give you a uniform increase or decrease in the powder metered. The 3BR has a sliding stem inside a hole that never varies, and as such if you move it "X" number of clicks for a one grain increment, that same number of clicks will move it another grain.

  Of course once you figure out what setting gives you a given amount for either you don't really have to worry about it. But as conditions change during the day so does the powder charge, and if I want to move the settings one grain, and I don't happen to have that setting for the Harrel, I'm just guessing, whereas with the 3BR I know "X" number of clicks will give me what I want. Plus with the 3BR you can set up a graph that you can refer to when first working up loads for a given powder. Something I don't think the Harrel will allow you to do.

  What are your thoughts on this??

PETE
  
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Dale53
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #19 - May 4th, 2004 at 10:35am
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Pete;
Take anything here with a grain of salt as I have had powder in the Harrel for a total of "one" time.

However, I have examined the Harrel carefully. When the Harrel's handle is up (talking only about the Schuetzen model as that is the only one I have) you have a perfectly readable micrometer. It reads in "tens" instead of "twenty-fives" but still a micrometer. It also has clicks in between the numbers. These clicks will allow you to make VERY small changes with assurance (if you need that). You can "graph" it as easily as any other measure. Now, it may give you different values at different ends of the scale (haven't tried that) but within a few grains up or down, it (shape of the cavity) should make no difference at all. It also, depending on the operator as does any other measure, allows you to be VERY accurate.

There is no doubt that the Redding Bench rest measure is an excellent measure and a good value. However, the Harrel's "Jewelry Value" has it all over the Redding  Grin ( I can't believe that I said that).

Bottom line, if money is a problem (and it can be for most of us) then buy the Redding. If you want the ultimate in snob appeal, then buy the Harrell Roll Eyes {there, I did it again Grin}.

Dale53
  
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PETE
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #20 - May 4th, 2004 at 4:30pm
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Dale,
  Yeah! The Harrel has "Jewelry Appeal", but I've always though beauty is as beauty does. I'm not faulting the Harrel one bit. Great piece of equipment.

  I don't think you can graph the Harrel like you can the 3BR. With the 3BR you plot the point at a bottom setting, and one at the top end, and then draw a straight line between the two, and if you're using graph paper you can then look at any point along that line and tell pretty close where to set the measure. Works!!

  The Harrel works on a different principle where the slide moves horizontally rather than vertically. This might work out the same but the shearing surface becomes larger as you move the slide out and, would in my mind anyway, alter the amount per "click". It works on the same principle as the Lyman 55 measure and I've never found that to be very good in this respect.

  Probbably one of the best measures ever made is the B&M Visible measure, and it works on the same principle as the 3BR.

Maybe I'm looking at this in the wrong way..... but as they say.... That's my story and I'm sticking to it!  Smiley

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #21 - May 5th, 2004 at 9:48am
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I have had the Harrell measure for a couple of years now. what I like about it is it's absolute repeatability. Once I get a setting I can sit at the range and drop the same charge all day. With a 32-40 I can get an extream spread of 3 to 7 fps over 10 shot sring. I could never get that kind of repeatability from any other measure.   
On my measure with Accurate No 9 or H 108  I get a drop of .2 grains for every 3 clicks. 

40 Rod
  
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PETE
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #22 - May 5th, 2004 at 4:05pm
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40 Rod,
  Guess I might have to change my story.  Smiley Probably need to work more with my Harrel to see what it'll do. Been shooting so much BP since before I bought it that I haven't had a chance to really work with it. Would hate to start using BP in it as it'll more tha nlikely really gun it up. I always use my B&M for BP as it never needs taking apart or gets jammed up with "fines".
  But in defense of the Redding 3BR, I will say it's every bit as accurate as the Harrel with the powders you mention. Considering many might not be able to buy the Harrel, the 3BR is the best bang for the buck out there as far as powder measures go.

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #23 - May 6th, 2004 at 8:16am
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Pete
You'll get no argument from me on that. The B&M is hands down the best for Black. The BR3 is a good measure for the money.
What I love is that at a match if I decide to change guns all I have to do is go to the correct setting in my book and I will get the same drop that I got last week or last month. For ball powders is is the best that I have found. 
I will also tell you that for stick powders I use an Precision rifles bench rest measure. I feel that the meater area on it is better designed for stick powders like 4759 or 5744.
  
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PETE
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #24 - May 6th, 2004 at 1:27pm
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40 Rod,
  Considering how temp.'s and humidity can change at a match to the point you need to adjust your measure to compensate, being able to have precise, repeatable adjustments on your measure is invaluable.

  Just wish it would work the same for BP!  Sad seems like every lot of that I buy I've got to retest and reset everything.

  Speaking of which. Just sent for a case of Swiss. I see on their web site that due to the drought in Europe last year that performance is slightly altered. If you weigh the charges you'll get the same results as before, but if you go the volume route things will be slightly different. Has this been your experience? Or....??

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #25 - May 6th, 2004 at 2:42pm
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Pete 
I havn't tryed the Swiss but it stands to reason. As you know Black is very hydroscopic a consistant moisture content is a must for consistant performance. In Phil Sharps he talks about keeping Black in a humidore is it can't dry out.

40 Rod
  
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Brent
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #26 - May 7th, 2004 at 10:03am
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Black powder is not "very hydoscopic."  Not even close.  That is just another popular fable.   

You might find this website of interest.  Pete and Ed did the data collection and I did the analysis, such that it is.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Brent
  
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PETE
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #27 - May 7th, 2004 at 12:15pm
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40 Rod,
  Brents right. I think where the misconception comes in is that BP fouling "IS" highly hygroscopic. BP itself is not especially so, and doesn't seem to be any more than smokeless.

  As I understand it BP does not have several lots blended like like they do with smokeless in order to get a consistent lot to lot burning rate. It's one of the things we have to live with when shooting BP, and was why I was wondering if you'd had experience with 2003 lot, and if the web sites info was correct.

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #28 - May 7th, 2004 at 4:54pm
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Thats news to me. All the oldtimers that I learned from kept particular records as to temp and humidity. As they claimed that it affected the burnrate of the powder.

40 Rod
  
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Brent
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Re: Spotting Scope Power
Reply #29 - May 7th, 2004 at 5:53pm
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Temp and humidity might affect exterior ballistics but it will not affect burn rate in a cartridge gun if using fixed ammo since the air in the case is not going to change significantly while waiting at the line to be ignited.  In a muzzleloader, there might be more of an effect in that the air that is mixed with the powder will be of a different consistency and hence, could burn at a different rate.  But, I think the big issue is just the density of the air as the bullet pushes it aside.   

Perhaps the oldtimers fell victim to a few myths too.  No reason they should be any more immune to them than we are.  And, certainly, there are many more myths to uncover.

Brent
  
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