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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet (Read 26496 times)
Cat_Whisperer
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Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Apr 18th, 2004 at 8:25am
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The last separate loading bullet I fired was 155mm in diameter.  The design bullet was 90% bore riding and had a brass or copper band at the back.  Just shoved it in with a hydraulic ram.  No brainer.  But for the little cast bullets without a gas-check or jacket the method of aligning it is a bit more critical.

Let me raise the question of delimiting the principles of how to VERY ACCURATELY position the bullet into the bore.

I have a bullet loader (the gizmo that puts the bullet into the bore, and then you load the charged casing).  Can't say I've used it yet - still working on sights for that Ruger #3.

I want to build loaders for several other of my single shots - Rugers and H&R's.

What are the typical clearances between the bullet and where it's held and what are the typical clearances between the sleeve holding it and the inside of the chamber?  (I.e.: just how crictical is aligning the co-axiality of the bullet to the bore?)

I assume that the pressures used to engage the bullet into the rifling should be determined emperically.

Is there a design for a loader for that can be used for the H&R (or other break-open action)?

Thanks,

  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
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ole7groove
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #1 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 9:31am
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Cat Wisperer.

The method of loading you are refering to is known as "breech seating" and is most often used when shooting plain based bullets in schuetzen rifles. This method of loading has probably been used for the past 125 years to acheive ultimate accuracy with single shot rifles. I refer you to an excellent article in the last issue of the Single Shot Rifle Journal (March-April) "Breechseating - All You Wanted to Know" by Charlie Shaeff. I beleive you will find this article very informative, as Charlie describes various methods used by todays shooters and those of the "oldtimer target shooters".

  
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PETE
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #2 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 3:31pm
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Cat,
To flesh out what Barry said a little more....

The first principle of breech seating is that you must know that your chamber and bore are parallel to each other. This is critcal. If they aren't breech seating might not be as accurate as using fixed ammo.

If you know the above to be the case then you have two main options for breech seating.

The first will require you to have your throat reamed out to the shape and length of the bullet you want to use. With this all you would need is what is called a hand seater. This will allow you to push the bullet in by hand with just a slight resistance at the end. With this method tho if you decide to use fixed ammo there will be quite a jump before the bullet engages the rifling. Something that's not really recommended with cast bullet.

The other method is to use a mechanical seater. This uses a mechanical leverage system to force the bullet up ahead of the case. The throat or Leade of your rifle should be relieved somewhat so that when using this method you don't deform the bullet. This method would be preferred if you would plan on using fixed ammo also. Most people seem to go with this method because they dont want to alter an original rifle or they plan on using fixed ammo.

Tolerances..... The closer the better! Mechanical and hand seaters can be made using a fired cartridge, and they work ok for the most part. But for the ultimate you will need a "tube" that exactly fits your chamber, and the hole bored down the center of it will fit your bullet you intend to use as closely as possible. The plunger that pushes the bullet into the throat should be a tight slide fit in the "tube" hole.

Seating pressures..... In both the hand and mechanical seater they should be no more than is required to seat the bullet ahead of the case without damaging the base of the bullet. Typically 1/16" for starters. The pressure required will depend on how your throat is set up.

As for a seater for a break action gun, you'll have to get ahold of Willis Gregory (singleshot) or Russ Weber and ask them. I don't see why one couldn't be made to work but it might mean making an alteration to the gun such as putting a small stud somewhere to provide for an anchor point for the lever of a mechanical seater. A hand seater would be possible, but see above for reasons why you might not want to do this.

There is another simple method of breech seating that should work very well for a break open gun. That's what they call a "plugged case" seater. All this is is a case with a wooden or brass rod set into an empty case and that sticks out about a 1/16". The throat will have to be relieved enuf so that you can drop the bullet into the chamber and get the plugged case in far enuf so you can close the action.

To use any of these methods of breech seating it is best to have a mould casting a tapered bullet. This will allow for less changing of the throat and helps guide the bullet into the barrel as it's being seated.

PETE
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #3 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 8:49pm
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ole7groove - thanks for the reference to GF's article.  I'll have to chase it down.

PETE - thanks much for the short discourse on seaters.  You mentioned a couple I'm not familiar with but will be soon.

It seems that it's obvious that it's important to match the bullet to the throat and maintain concentricity and keep a consistant depth/force of engagement.

I think I've got a LOT of thinking and planning to do regarding bullet form, throating and so forth to consider in the process of developing my own seater.

Thanks,
  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
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Green_Frog
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #4 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 9:59pm
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Ever see a frog blush?  Thanks for the most kind words, Barry.  I am hoping that by the time that article and its sequel (or perhaps 2...depending on how it shapes up) are in circulation, we will have more of the non-regulars a little better exposed to and understanding this strange habit we have.

Catwhisperer, I'll be happy to hook up with you and demo that loader in person...as you may recall, I am shooting a Ruger #1 using a mechanical breechseater made for me by singleshot.

OT to Barry:  I don't feel so badly about being classed as a "newbie" as long as you are too...Imagine that!   Grin
Also, sorry I didn't get to see you @ NRA...did you get to drop by at all?  We saw an old friend of yours, Max G from the Coors days, who was anxious to say hi as well.  Hope to see you soon @ E-G

All the best, GF
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #5 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 10:02pm
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PS to last:  Steve (buchsenmacher) Durren has made up a breech seater for his break open "Modest Schuetzen" project rifle.  Hopefully he will be telling us about it soon in print or electronically (Hint, hint  Roll Eyes )

GF again
  
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PETE
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #6 - Apr 18th, 2004 at 10:27pm
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Cat,
Yes.... Consistency in all you do when breech seating is very important. Actually consistency is the name of the whole game! Smiley Barry reminded me of something the late Claude Roderick said "Schuetzen is a game of tremendous trifles!". Everything from pricking your mould so you can orient your bullets to orienting the primers is fair game to get the ultimate accuracy out of your gun.

One thing missed by many is the force required to seat the bullet, as you mention in your message. You have to pay special attention to the feel of the bullet being put into the throat. Some powders, like the ball powders tend to build up fouling more rapidly than the stick powders. I tend to think this is caused by the binder used in them. But, they all will build up fouling just ahead of the chamber over a period of time and when you feel the slightest resistance to the bullet being seated it's time to clean it out.

If Barry feels up to it I'll let him discuss some of his methods he uses for cleaning this "glaze", as he calls it, out. He's given me some ideas I'll be trying in the next few days.

PETE
  
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ole7groove
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #7 - Apr 19th, 2004 at 3:32pm
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Frog, Cat, Pete and Fellow Newbies Roll Eyes,

To follow up on Pete's mention of what I call "glazing", which most often is mistaken for "leading, loss of accuracy is the same result. I've inspected the throat area of many rifles that have "gone sour" with a 10x borescope, more times than not the throat area of the bore has a build up of a hard substance, like that found on a case neck that has been fired many times without wiping off the black residue from the cartridge neck. If allowed to accumulate on the case neck about the only way to remove it is with steel wool. This same condition occurs in the throat area of the bore and can easily be felt by the increasing force required to breechseat each bullet as more shots are fired, this seating force is most easily felt when a mechanical bullet seater is used. I beleive this "glazing" condition occurs most frequently when ball powders than with powders such as 4227 or 4759. Some primers also seem to contribute more to this condition than others as does humidity to some extent. Breechseating the next bullet to be shot as soon as possible after firing the previous one seems to reduce the occurance of "glazing".

For many years it has been my habit of cleaning my barrel at regular intervals to maintain best accuracy, build up
of "glazing" can lead to "leading". "Glazing" is best removed from the throat by cleaning with JB Bore Paste applied to a tight fitting cleaning patch. The affected area of the throat can easily be detected as the patch will seem to tug on the cleaning rod as it passes through this area. Clean by always having the patch return to the throat, as pass or two all the way to the muzzle with more cleaning stroke towards the breech, do not just work in the throat area alone, this glazing can occur the full length of the bore, but usually the most "glazing" will occur in the first 4 to 6 inches from the chamber. When the tug on the patch is no longer felt, clean the bore with powder solvent and dry patch.

When "glazing" starts to occur a gradually loss of accuracy will be seen by gradual increase in group size. Cleaning every 20 -25 shots does much to eliminate the problem, I have several rifles that have over 40K shots through them that have been carefully cleaned in this way with no loss of accuracy. I'm sure many shooters have had their rifles seem to go "sour" and clean for "leading" only to find none, what they have done without knowing it is find glazing. This regular cleaning will not eliminate any shooters inability to read conditions however.

Brent- Your reading as I'm taking breaks from writing. To answer your question if "glazing" occurs with BP as well as smokeless, yes and most likely more so. However, not being a BP shooter I would think the same would be true for breechseated bullets being seated as soon as possible after firing the previous shot as possible while the fouling is soft. I will defer to Pete for his opinion.

Frog - Sorry I didn't make it to the NRA Show last weekend, I was really looking forward to meeting all you fellas. Sorry I missed Max Goodwin too. Max is the father of single shot national matches, it was through his efforts that convinced Bill Coors into sponsoring the First Coors National Schuetzenfest in 1982, single shot shooting has come a long way since those days on a national scale. I WILL be at the EG match in May, am looking forward to finally meeting the "new oldtimers".

Regards,
Barry



« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2004 at 4:24pm by »  
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Brent
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #8 - Apr 19th, 2004 at 3:48pm
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how do you remove this glazing if it is already there?  And does this happen with bp?  Or is this a smokeless only kind of thing?

  
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PETE
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #9 - Apr 19th, 2004 at 6:52pm
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Barry & Brent,
Well Barry you can defer to me on whether "glazing" occurs with BP if you want to, but this whole idea of "glazing" is a new one on me.

Offhand I wouldn't think it would be a problem for those Schuetzen shooters that use it, since they will most likely wipe the bore out between shots. I am going to have to really pay attention to this as I;m working up BP loads for the .28/30. But I definitely think, if it's possible, for those shooting Shilouette to experience this as they mostly just use a blow tube and fouling will build up even with a bullet that has a good scraper band.

Bill K. mentions a "creosote" build-up with certain brands of BP, and this might just be another name for "glazing".

Brent... The "glazing" is removed with the JB bore paste. I got a good lesson the other day on this "glazing" when our gunsmith showed me how much more "crud" I had in what I thought was a really clean barrel, after I noticed a "lump" just in front of the chamber after shooting quite a bit of AA#9. Took quite a bit of effort to finally get it all out. I can't say at this time tho that I've noticed a recurrence since I've switched over to BP. But am planning on using the JB after every days shooting. I'll first clean it normally till I get clean patches out and then use some JB to see if it takes more patches to get it cleaner.

PETE
  
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Dale53
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #10 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 12:30am
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Barry, Brent, and Pete;

Oh goody! Now I have something else to worry about Tongue. Like I have said before, "The more I learn the more I realize I have MUCH more to learn..."

Dale53
  
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Brent
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #11 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 8:21am
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Does this sort of glazing build up in a .22?  Given that we never clean them - normally.  Or maybe only clean them once per year, is this an issue?   

Brent
  
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PETE
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #12 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 10:18am
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Dale,
Yep! The old adage that the more you learn the more you find out there is more to learn, is certainly true when it comes to shooting.

By the way. Been meaning to mention that I really liked you Competition Corner article in the recent issue of The Journal. Look forward to the next one. That's quite the rifle you've got there. I'll be happy to trade you even up for my FBW P70!  Smiley

Brent,
There's no reason why JB couldn't be used in a .22. But as you mentioned we normally don't clean .22's, and possibly once a year at most. Takes to long to "season" them. In fact I've never cleaned my BRC .22!

But.... if for some reason you think the accuracy has fallen off a thorough cleaning might be in order in order to break thru the many layers of fouling and possible Lead wash.

As Barry mentioned this glazing seems to occur more often with certain powders and primers than with others. Since the charges in a .22 are so small this might never become an issue. But might be something to keep an eye on. One of us is gonna have to buy a bore scope!  Smiley

PETE
  
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Brent
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #13 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 10:25am
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Okay Pete, I give up - you buy the scope, I'll be happy to borrow it!

Seriously, what do these cost and what about 3-4 or a dozen of us pitching in and buying one "for the club" as it were.  The woodworking club I belong to has bought club tools similar to this - things are expensive and used rarely make good public property tools.

Just a thought.   

Brent
  
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PETE
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Re: Design principles of gizmo to load the bullet
Reply #14 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 10:39am
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Brent,

Yeah! I figured you guys would like to have me buy it. But I'm retired, so figured you'd pick up the bill. Actually our gunsmith ought to be buying this.

But if you'll buy I'll go down to Brownells and pick it up!

Yike's!!! Just looked up the cost for one in Brownells catalog. Depending on the length they go from $515 to $635. The 17" Slim Kit (longest optic tube), which has all the accessories you GOTTA have, goes for $785.

The only problem with several people going in on one is that it always seems like it's at somebody elses house, and considering how strung out the guys in the Pine Ridge Rifle Club are, I don't think it would work out to good. since the gunsmith and me live in the same town we could probably swing it. He ought to be reading this soon. Maybe he'll have a comment.

PETE
  
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