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DoubleD
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Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Yesterday at 9:12am
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I have a Westley Richard's patent 1871 rifle. It has a 500 No. 2 Express chamber.  It has a Whitworth rifled bore-8 flats, octagon.   

This is a cartridge gun, not a ML.

The  bore slugs .502 across the flats (minor diameter) and .527 across the corners (major diameter).

I have a round grease groove bullet mould for .527 bullets weighing 487grs in 20-1.

I am reluctant to shoot a .527 diameter bullet, even 20-1 lead down .502 minor diameter bore.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge to share on shooting Whitworth bore cartridge guns?



  

Douglas, Ret.
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rgchristensen
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #1 - yesterday at 11:13am
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DoubleD wrote yesterday at 9:12am:
I have a Westley Richard's patent 1871 rifle. It has a 500 No. 2 Express chamber.  It has a Whitworth rifled bore-8 flats, octagon.  

This is a cartridge gun, not a ML.

The  bore slugs .502 across the flats (minor diameter) and .527 across the corners (major diameter).

I have a round grease groove bullet mould for .527 bullets weighing 487grs in 20-1.

I am reluctant to shoot a .527 diameter bullet, even 20-1 lead down .502 minor diameter bore.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge to share on shooting Whitworth bore cartridge guns?




DD:

First, I’d suggest a lighter bullet, maybe even trying a round ball.  The pitch of the rifling will give some insights on the proper bullet weight.  Black Powder is well suited to these cartridges -- FFg will probably work fine.  This will give you similar velocity to a smokeless load, at about half the pressure.

Choose a bullet that will be a “nice” fit in a fired case -- that will be the best size.  Put a stiff card between the powder and the bullet.

CHRIS
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #2 - yesterday at 11:20am
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Why not try a 50-70 bullet (.512ish) at 450 to 500 grains and see how they work? You can always try wrapping them with increasing layers of paper patch until it all comes together.
  
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bullshop
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #3 - yesterday at 6:30pm
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Treat it like a muzzle loader.  Shoot pure lead at the minor diameter.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #4 - yesterday at 7:24pm
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My 1869 WR Improved Martini is in 500-450 #2 Musket and is marked Henry rifling. The Imperial War Museums 1871 WR Improved Martini (outside the same as my 69 but had gone to a striker) is marked "for Martini cartridge" which I assume is the 577-450 and the top of the barrel is marked Metford rifling. These are sturdy actions which can be found in many calibers and, apparently, with many barrel forms. Our BP lead shooting rifles are starting with bullets a few thousandths over groove diameter no matter what the bore diameter and the Whitworth while mostly bore diameter in appearance actually has triangular grooves which could possibly be measured from the sharp point of the intersection of two flats to the distance of the  center of the line drawn between the centers of two flats. Sure wish I could draw that. The bottom line is that the bullet should be of a larger diameter than the apparent bore diameter. I'd pop a 50-70 (say .512 diameter) into the barrel using just a Magnum primer and then drive it back out from the nose side and see what it looks like.
I was just looking around and found this: The .577/500 No. 2 BPE was developed as a black powder round some time before 1879 by necking down the .577 Black Powder Express to .507-inches (12.9 mm)[2] for use in single or double rifles, as well as a variety of Martini-based lever rifles. Now you can imagine that some hunter in the middle of nowhere ran out of his relatively rare Whitworth cartridges so he fired off a few of these at the charging Cape buffalo with no ill effects but perhaps not the best accuracy due to the bullet being too small. An experiment is in order.
Update - I just found your photo of the rifling in your barrel and would call it Metford polygonal. Shallow with rounded lands. Treat it like any BP rifle with a bullet several thousandths larger than the land diameter.
« Last Edit: yesterday at 8:09pm by oneatatime »  
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curdog
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #5 - yesterday at 8:51pm
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Based on my experience with quite a few English rifling forms, although not Whitworth, probably the best bet is a .502" either 340 grain Express or 380 grain solid, if I remember the bullet weights correctly.
Wrap 'em round twice with 11 to 16 lb paper.
Service charge of OE 1 1/2F
At least a 3/16" grease cookie with a good tight beeswax foundation wax wad either side on top of the powder, and a .030 hard card wad or two of .535 diameter under the bullet.
This ought to get you close.
  
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85lc
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #6 - Today at 11:31am
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Doug, 
If you fireform a case, you should be able to tell the largest bullet that can fit into the case with 0.002" for bullet relase.  That will tell you the largest diameter bullet that you can use.   
I think that the recommendation to use a soft lead bullet, paper patched with grease wad friven by a case ful of 2F powder would work well.   
Look forward to seeing your shootiung report.
  

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DoubleD
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #7 - Today at 12:00pm
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Thanks Gents for your feedback.  I will study it carefully. It is greatfully received.

One thing I forgot in my original post was the pictures.  Sorry.

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As you can see these are clearly Whitworth pattern. 

Also rifle is clearly marked Whitworth rifled.

Currently I have test loads made up using the following bullets.

1. Barnes Original .510 300gr.
2. Woodleigh .510  440 gr.
3.  CBE .512 340 gr. 20-1 cast

All are loaded using Nitro for Black (NfB) loads with RL15 or  Varget. No black powder.   I will, if I can make the gun shoot, be taking it to Canada for bear hunting in the fall.  


I was curious as how anyone else dealt with the large discrepancy in size from major to minor diameters in this bore shape.  No true lands and grooves. 

I have a mould that cast Grease groove bullet .527.  But I will have to make or buy bigger neck expander for those bullets to fit my cases.


THe question that keeps coming up in my mind, the  obturation from .510/.512 to .527 to much and will make the loads erratic?

And in the other direction, will swaging a round bullet down to octagon and .502 across the flats, make the loads erratic.


Sitting her typing I came up with a way to find out.  A friend told me the other day, I think to much,  go to the range and shoot.





  

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oneatatime
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Re: Bullets for a Whitworth bore, cartridge gun?
Reply #8 - Today at 5:14pm
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Douglas, in your second picture, what are the measurements flat to flat and point to point? I would effectively call the flat to flat the lands and point to point the grooves.
  
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