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JKR
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Highwall misfires
Yesterday at 7:52am
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I’ve been having several misfires with my Meacham 45-90. I’m wondering if anyone has had this problem and how to correct it. 
The main difference between this rifle and an original highwall is the Niedner firing pin and skeletonized hammer. It uses the late style coil hammer spring. 
The spring seems strong and firing pin protrusion is good. Currently I’m using 210M primers but have had misfires with others although I don’t recall any with 150M pistol primers. 
Since this is a target rifle, I’ve given some thought to removing the safety notch and fly, but I’m somewhat reluctant to go down this road unless I’m sure it would cure the problem. 
Any thoughts?
  
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cadyk
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #1 - yesterday at 9:33am
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JKR,

Two questions that might help you diagnose:

Is there a faint firing pin imprint on the primer? 

Does the hammer fall only to the half-cock notch?

Those answers will help you determine whether the half-cock is catching the hammer.

The fact that you haven't had misfires with the pistol primers might indicate that you have insufficient striker force.  I once had a rimfire Winder musket that had the firing pin shortened to just under 0.040" protrusion.  A new coil spring didn't solve the problem, but a new firing pin with 0.055" protrusion solved the problem.

The Needier firing pin may just need a cleanup to get out anything that may have become trapped, or just a very light coat of oil to minimize friction.

CADyk
  
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JKR
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #2 - yesterday at 11:36am
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cadyk wrote yesterday at 9:33am:
JKR,

Two questions that might help you diagnose:

Is there a faint firing pin imprint on the primer? 

Does the hammer fall only to the half-cock notch?

Those answers will help you determine whether the half-cock is catching the hammer.

The fact that you haven't had misfires with the pistol primers might indicate that you have insufficient striker force.  I once had a rimfire Winder musket that had the firing pin shortened to just under 0.040" protrusion.  A new coil spring didn't solve the problem, but a new firing pin with 0.055" protrusion solved the problem.

The Needier firing pin may just need a cleanup to get out anything that may have become trapped, or just a very light coat of oil to minimize friction.

CADyk


Thanks for your thoughts.
Primer dent looks sufficient but may be slightly less when compared to other rifles I have. 
The hammer is prevented from dropping into the safety notch by the fly. However I’m wondering if the hammer fall is slightly slowed by bumping over the fly. 
Firing pin is in good shape and channel is clean. It’s very easy to remove. I’m embarrassed to say I haven’t measured protrusion. I will next time I take out the block. I will say that it appears adequate, more than on my others. It would be easy to increase if  it was necessary to do so.
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #3 - yesterday at 11:45am
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I found years ago that the inside of a Winchester single shot can trap a good deal of crud. Old lube, bits of dirt and even other stuff. My first rifle came to me due to the owner having similar trouble as you are having, but not with the Neidner pin no a fly because it is a plain trigger gun. I learned how to take it down to do a 'new gun cleaning' and was surprised to see how much was in the block- no doubt slowing the pin to prevent firing the primer. I wonder if that had ever been mucked out since the rifle was new before the turn of the century. Once cleaned and lube it soon became my favorite rifle. 
One very good feature of the original rifles over those with the so-called Neidner variety is that the pin can be removed without dismantling the whole damn action and emergency cleaning can be done in the field with nothing beyond a screwdriver and a couple of toothpicks. and oil.
  
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bobw
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #4 - yesterday at 12:21pm
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JKR wrote yesterday at 11:36am:
cadyk wrote yesterday at 9:33am:
JKR,

Two questions that might help you diagnose:

Is there a faint firing pin imprint on the primer? 

Does the hammer fall only to the half-cock notch?

Those answers will help you determine whether the half-cock is catching the hammer.

The fact that you haven't had misfires with the pistol primers might indicate that you have insufficient striker force.  I once had a rimfire Winder musket that had the firing pin shortened to just under 0.040" protrusion.  A new coil spring didn't solve the problem, but a new firing pin with 0.055" protrusion solved the problem.

The Needier firing pin may just need a cleanup to get out anything that may have become trapped, or just a very light coat of oil to minimize friction.

CADyk


Thanks for your thoughts.
Primer dent looks sufficient but may be slightly less when compared to other rifles I have. 
The hammer is prevented from dropping into the safety notch by the fly. However I’m wondering if the hammer fall is slightly slowed by bumping over the fly. 
Firing pin is in good shape and channel is clean. It’s very easy to remove. I’m embarrassed to say I haven’t measured protrusion. I will next time I take out the block. I will say that it appears adequate, more than on my others. It would be easy to increase if  it was necessary to do so.


You don’t say if this rifle is new to you or you’ve had it and it use to work.   

But, I would check to be sure the breech block is coming up tight to the barrel face, and that the brass you are using when pushed in against the chamber rim doesn’t have excess head space to the rear barrel face.  If these are good, and the firing pin protrusion is correct, then you know there’s something going on behind the breech face.

This is off the subject of your issue but, I would warn against a rimfire with .055 firing pin protrusion.  This could have been needed because of head space issues.  A case of treating a symptom rather than the disease.   A rim on a 22 shell is around .043 thick.  If you dry fire a .055 firing pin in a 22rf it will damage the edge of the chamber or possibly break the firing pin.
Bob
  

Robert Warren
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #5 - yesterday at 2:03pm
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Robert,
You might have it!
Your reply sent me running to the shop. With the block closed I can slip a .007 feeler gauge between the breech face and the barrel. Comparing this to an original Winchester I have it’s considerably less gap. But… When I push an empty case tight into the chamber I can see that it’s just a hair deeper than the barrel face. 
I pushed a case in tight, closed the breech, then carefully slid a rod in from the muzzle until it stopped against the inside of the empty case. When I pushed on the rod I could feel and hear the case pop back against the breech face. This is a minute amount of movement that I wouldn’t have noticed with a loaded round because the bullet against the lands hold the case to the rear.  The question now is, is the excessive headspace and causing the misfires? 
To answer your first question. I’ve owned and used the rifle for two years. Over this period I’ve had a few, not many, misfires. Lately the misfires are increasing. I shot a ten shot string plus sighters yesterday and had five. 
Thanks for your thoughts on this. 
Jim
  
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bpjack
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #6 - yesterday at 3:45pm
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I had a .22 low wall with a chamber that engraved the bullet. Excessive headspace so the round would not seat all the way. It usually took two strikes to fire. The first seated the round. If I closed the block on a .009 feeler gauge it would fire first time.  Luckily I found a replacement block that fixed the problem. 
If your first strike pushed the case forward that may be robbing striking power. 

  

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Old-Win
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #7 - yesterday at 3:46pm
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calledflyer wrote yesterday at 11:45am:
I found years ago that the inside of a Winchester single shot can trap a good deal of crud. Old lube, bits of dirt and even other stuff. My first rifle came to me due to the owner having similar trouble as you are having, but not with the Neidner pin no a fly because it is a plain trigger gun. I learned how to take it down to do a 'new gun cleaning' and was surprised to see how much was in the block- no doubt slowing the pin to prevent firing the primer. I wonder if that had ever been mucked out since the rifle was new before the turn of the century. Once cleaned and lube it soon became my favorite rifle. 
One very good feature of the original rifles over those with the so-called Neidner variety is that the pin can be removed without dismantling the whole damn action and emergency cleaning can be done in the field with nothing beyond a screwdriver and a couple of toothpicks. and oil.


Jim, I'll bet it is a problem with the Mann/Niedner That was a problem with Tom's a few years ago and I fixed his by removing it, cleaning it and polishing the parts and putting it back together and it's been working fine since. I haven't seen a Meacham. Did he use a true Mann/Niedner system where a faceplate is held in with two small screws? I can't imagine the headspace changing because of firing black powder in your rifle.  A .007" gap isn't excessive but I would like mine to be a little tighter than that. You do say that the rim sits beneath the end of the barrel so that could cause excessive head space. Have you changed your brass lately and shooting a different brand?  Are you shooting it this weekend? Bring it along as Lynn and I will both be there and we'll take a look at it. We both know our high walls fairly well and should be able to come up with some kind of answer. I have some stretched Remington 45-70 cases that I will bring along as they may have a thicker rim and were probably used back when your rifle was made.
« Last Edit: yesterday at 4:08pm by Old-Win »  
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bobw
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #8 - yesterday at 4:06pm
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JKR wrote yesterday at 2:03pm:
Robert,
You might have it!
Your reply sent me running to the shop. With the block closed I can slip a .007 feeler gauge between the breech face and the barrel. Comparing this to an original Winchester I have it’s considerably less gap. But… When I push an empty case tight into the chamber I can see that it’s just a hair deeper than the barrel face. 
I pushed a case in tight, closed the breech, then carefully slid a rod in from the muzzle until it stopped against the inside of the empty case. When I pushed on the rod I could feel and hear the case pop back against the breech face. This is a minute amount of movement that I wouldn’t have noticed with a loaded round because the bullet against the lands hold the case to the rear.  The question now is, is the excessive headspace and causing the misfires? 
To answer your first question. I’ve owned and used the rifle for two years. Over this period I’ve had a few, not many, misfires. Lately the misfires are increasing. I shot a ten shot string plus sighters yesterday and had five. 
Thanks for your thoughts on this. 
Jim


If you can get a .007 gage between the barrel and breech block face and the rim face is also below the rear face of the barrel you could have .010 or more head space on the case head. Then if the firing pin is not at the proper protrusion, or dirty, it is just stacking on to the issue.  I want to say max. head space is .003 to .006.  I like them tighter than that spec. on a single shot rifle.
Bob
« Last Edit: yesterday at 4:13pm by bobw »  

Robert Warren
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Old-Win
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #9 - yesterday at 4:24pm
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0bobw wrote yesterday at 4:06pm:
JKR wrote yesterday at 2:03pm:
Robert,
You might have it!
Your reply sent me running to the shop. With the block closed I can slip a .007 feeler gauge between the breech face and the barrel. Comparing this to an original Winchester I have it’s considerably less gap. But… When I push an empty case tight into the chamber I can see that it’s just a hair deeper than the barrel face. 
I pushed a case in tight, closed the breech, then carefully slid a rod in from the muzzle until it stopped against the inside of the empty case. When I pushed on the rod I could feel and hear the case pop back against the breech face. This is a minute amount of movement that I wouldn’t have noticed with a loaded round because the bullet against the lands hold the case to the rear.  The question now is, is the excessive headspace and causing the misfires? 
To answer your first question. I’ve owned and used the rifle for two years. Over this period I’ve had a few, not many, misfires. Lately the misfires are increasing. I shot a ten shot string plus sighters yesterday and had five. 
Thanks for your thoughts on this. 
Jim


If you can get a .007 gage between the barrel and breech block face and the rim face is also below the rear face of the barrel you could have .010 or more head space on the case head.  I want to say max. head space is .003 to .006.  I like them tighter than that spec. on a single shot rifle.
Bob
 
Agree, I have a couple of my rifles made up with about .003" headspace and have trimmed the rims of all my brass so that they are the same thickness which keeps headspace down to a minimum. I once owned a Cody Ballard high wall that would take a .012" feeler gauge between the end of the barrel and the breech block. Didn't seem to be a problem but it did bug me.
« Last Edit: yesterday at 5:40pm by Old-Win »  
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Old-Win
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #10 - yesterday at 5:39pm
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Jim, I pulled out the stretched Remington brass and it has the same rim thickness as the Starline that I have. Starline is a very consistent .065" and the Remington runs about .063- .065".
  
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JKR
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Re: Highwall misfires
Reply #11 - yesterday at 6:05pm
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Bob,
I was hoping you’d see this! I will bring it along. The FP is easily removed by unscrewing the bushing at the rear of the breech block. Near as I can measure the Starline case seats .005” beneath the end of the barrel. Rim thickness on the case is .064”. 
Jim
  
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